ChessPub Forum - Wanderer, is there a path through?

Stefan Buecker God Member Offline Posts: 1386 Location: Germany Joined: 02/11/09 Gender:	Re: Wanderer, is there a path through? Reply #22 - 05/05/10 at 19:25:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	linksspringer wrote on 05/05/10 at 17:24:06: My PC suggests that Black is OK after 12...Re8. Instead, it likes White (+=) after 9.e4. What do you think? 12...Re8? ignores the threat 13.exd5 cxd5 14.Ng5+ Kg6 15.Nxd5!. That's why 12...Rf8 is necessary (in this case the same attempt only leads to a draw). But 9.e4 seems to be a sound alternative.


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linksspringer Senior Member Offline Posts: 376 Joined: 09/25/07	Re: Wanderer, is there a path through? Reply #21 - 05/05/10 at 17:24:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/05/10 at 12:05:41: linksspringer wrote on 05/05/10 at 11:40:32: (1.b3 e5 2.Bb2 Nc6 3.e3 d5 4.Bb5 Bd6 5.f4 Qh4+ 6.g3 Qe7 7.Nf3 f6) 8.Nc3! Be6 9.0-0 0-0-0 10.Bxc6 bxc6 11.fxe5 fxe5 12.Na4 Bg4 [...] Top stuff Stefan, thanks! I wasn't really sure what to do in your mainline after 12...Bh3, but perhaps we can switch the move order around? 12.Qe2 Kb7 13.Na4 and on 13...Bh3 the exchange sac 14.c4 looks good. Your exchange sac also deserves a look after 12...Bh3, e. g. (a) 13.c4 dxc4 14.Qc2 Bxf1 15.Rxf1, or even (b) 13.Qe2! when Kb7 14.c4! transposes. Yes, you're right, that would be a transposition. Both exchange sacs look interesting, but maybe only =. At the moment I am examining some alternatives to 10.Bxc6 as well. (10.e4!? ; 10.Qe2 ; 10.b4!?) Quote: (b) Quote: 6...a6 7.Bxc6+ bxc6 8.Qh5+ g6 9.Qh4 exf4 (tempo up on regular 6.Qh5+ lines) 10.Nf3!? fxe3 11.0-0 exd2 12.Nxd2 Kf7 13.Rae1 with a dangerous attack for the 2 pawns. My line ran 8...Kf8 (instead of g6) 9.fxe5 fxe5 10.e4 Nf6 11.Qh4 Kf7 12.Nf3 Rf8 13.Ng5+ Kg6 14.0-0 d4 15.Na4 h6 16.Nf3 c5 17.Bc1 Qe7 18.Nb2 +=. My PC suggests that Black is OK after 12...Re8. Instead, it likes White (+=) after 9.e4. What do you think? Quote: 8...g6 9.Qh4 exf4. Sorry, I don't know much about 1.b3. The PC suggested the primitive 10.exf4 with a nice plus. Is this wrong? 10...Kf7 11.0-0-0 Kg7 12.Nf3 Nh6 13.Rde1 Rf8 14.Ng5 Rb8 15.Na4 etc. That looks perfectly fine to me. My 10.Nf3 is perhaps overkill here.


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Stefan Buecker God Member Offline Posts: 1386 Location: Germany Joined: 02/11/09 Gender:	Re: Wanderer, is there a path through? Reply #20 - 05/05/10 at 12:05:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	linksspringer wrote on 05/05/10 at 11:40:32: (1.b3 e5 2.Bb2 Nc6 3.e3 d5 4.Bb5 Bd6 5.f4 Qh4+ 6.g3 Qe7 7.Nf3 f6) 8.Nc3! Be6 9.0-0 0-0-0 10.Bxc6 bxc6 11.fxe5 fxe5 12.Na4 Bg4 [...] Top stuff Stefan, thanks! I wasn't really sure what to do in your mainline after 12...Bh3, but perhaps we can switch the move order around? 12.Qe2 Kb7 13.Na4 and on 13...Bh3 the exchange sac 14.c4 looks good. Your exchange sac also deserves a look after 12...Bh3, e. g. (a) 13.c4 dxc4 14.Qc2 Bxf1 15.Rxf1, or even (b) 13.Qe2! when Kb7 14.c4! transposes. Quote: (1.b3 e5 2.Bb2 Nc6 3.e3 d5 4.Bb5 Bd6 5.f4 f6) 6.Nc3 (a) 6...Nge7 7.fxe5 fxe5 [7...Bxe5!?] 8.Qh5+ g6 9.Qh4 0-0 10.0-0-0 and because of the g6 weakness there are prospects for a kingside attack. Trading queens with 10...Nf5 11.Qxd8 Nxd8 12.e4 still seems to leave White slightly better. 7...Bxe5 8.d4 Bd6 9.Qh5+ g6 10.Qf3 looks OK. (b) Quote: 6...a6 7.Bxc6+ bxc6 8.Qh5+ g6 9.Qh4 exf4 (tempo up on regular 6.Qh5+ lines) 10.Nf3!? fxe3 11.0-0 exd2 12.Nxd2 Kf7 13.Rae1 with a dangerous attack for the 2 pawns. My line ran 8...Kf8 (instead of g6) 9.fxe5 fxe5 10.e4 Nf6 11.Qh4 Kf7 12.Nf3 Rf8 13.Ng5+ Kg6 14.0-0 d4 15.Na4 h6 16.Nf3 c5 17.Bc1 Qe7 18.Nb2 +=. 8...g6 9.Qh4 exf4. Sorry, I don't know much about 1.b3. The PC suggested the primitive 10.exf4 with a nice plus. Is this wrong? 10...Kf7 11.0-0-0 Kg7 12.Nf3 Nh6 13.Rde1 Rf8 14.Ng5 Rb8 15.Na4 etc.


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linksspringer Senior Member Offline Posts: 376 Joined: 09/25/07	Re: Wanderer, is there a path through? Reply #19 - 05/05/10 at 11:40:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	Paul123 wrote on 05/04/10 at 22:22:23: Nice... This is what I envisioned this site to be... A couple of people interested in an opening or line.. exploring the positions ... and comparing and contrasting. very cool. It is! And now Stefan is contributing, great! I hope that Jonathan Tait will join in as well. FrankieJay wrote on 05/05/10 at 01:54:02: So, this might be a bit off-topic, but what is the line of choice after 1. b3 e5 2. Bb2 Nc6 3. e3 d5 4. Bb5 Bd6 5. f4 Qh4+ ? So, 6. g3 Qe7 7. Nf3 f6 (Bg4 also possible, of course). Now what? All interesting ideas/questions concerning the Nimzo-Larsen are welcome! (1.b3 e5 2.Bb2 Nc6 3.e3 d5 4.Bb5 Bd6 5.f4 Qh4+ 6.g3 Qe7 7.Nf3 f6) Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/05/10 at 04:56:47: I'd recommend 8.Nc3! Be6 9.0-0 0-0-0 (worse 9...Nh6 10.fxe5 fxe5 McMichael - Chandler, London 1994; "11.e4 though Black is OK after 11...dxe4 12.Nxe4 0-0" Jacobs/Tait; imo +=; or 11...d4 12.Nd5 Qd7 Jacobs/Tait, here 13.Ng5 is +/-) 10.Bxc6 bxc6 11.fxe5 fxe5 12.Na4 Bg4 13.Qe2 Kb7 14.e4 unclear. Top stuff Stefan, thanks! I wasn't really sure what to do in your mainline after 12...Bh3, but perhaps we can switch the move order around? 12.Qe2 Kb7 13.Na4 and on 13...Bh3 the exchange sac 14.c4 looks good. (1.b3 e5 2.Bb2 Nc6 3.e3 d5 4.Bb5 Bd6 5.f4 f6) Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/05/10 at 04:56:47: Btw, against 5...f6 I'd slightly prefer 6.Nc3 to linksspringer's 6.Qh5+ g6 7.Qh4 exf4 8.Nf3 (maybe 8.Nc3!), because of the PC's 8...fxe3 (8...Qd7 9.exf4 Qg4 =) 9.0-0 Bd7 10.Nc3 Nce7 (10...Ne5 =) when Black is a shade better. Yes, that seems to improve on 8...Kf7. I don't have much faith in 8.Nc3 or 8.Ne2 (Odessky) either. But I like your 6.Nc3 suggestion! 6...Nge7 7.fxe5 fxe5 [7...Bxe5!?] 8.Qh5+ g6 9.Qh4 0-0 10.0-0-0 and because of the g6 weakness there are prospects for a kingside attack. Trading queens with 10...Nf5 11.Qxd8 Nxd8 12.e4 still seems to leave White slightly better. 6...a6 7.Bxc6+ bxc6 8.Qh5+ g6 9.Qh4 exf4 (tempo up on regular 6.Qh5+ lines) 10.Nf3!? fxe3 11.0-0 exd2 12.Nxd2 Kf7 13.Rae1 with a dangerous attack for the 2 pawns.


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Stefan Buecker God Member Offline Posts: 1386 Location: Germany Joined: 02/11/09 Gender:	Re: Wanderer, is there a path through? Reply #18 - 05/05/10 at 04:56:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	FrankieJay wrote on 05/05/10 at 01:54:02: So, this might be a bit off-topic, but what is the line of choice after 1. b3 e5 2. Bb2 Nc6 3. e3 d5 4. Bb5 Bd6 5. f4 Qh4+ ? So, 6. g3 Qe7 7. Nf3 f6 (Bg4 also possible, of course). Now what? I'd recommend 8.Nc3! Be6 9.0-0 0-0-0 (worse 9...Nh6 10.fxe5 fxe5 McMichael - Chandler, London 1994; "11.e4 though Black is OK after 11...dxe4 12.Nxe4 0-0" Jacobs/Tait; imo +=; or 11...d4 12.Nd5 Qd7 Jacobs/Tait, here 13.Ng5 is +/-) 10.Bxc6 bxc6 11.fxe5 fxe5 12.Na4 Bg4 13.Qe2 Kb7 14.e4 unclear. Btw, against 5...f6 I'd slightly prefer 6.Nc3 to linksspringer's 6.Qh5+ g6 7.Qh4 exf4 8.Nf3 (maybe 8.Nc3!), because of the PC's 8...fxe3 (8...Qd7 9.exf4 Qg4 =) 9.0-0 Bd7 10.Nc3 Nce7 (10...Ne5 =) when Black is a shade better.


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FrankieJay YaBB Newbies Offline USCF 2357 Posts: 35 Location: Minnesota, USA Joined: 10/20/09	Re: Wanderer, is there a path through? Reply #17 - 05/05/10 at 01:54:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	So, this might be a bit off-topic, but what is the line of choice after 1. b3 e5 2. Bb2 Nc6 3. e3 d5 4. Bb5 Bd6 5. f4 Qh4+ ? So, 6. g3 Qe7 7. Nf3 f6 (Bg4 also possible, of course). Now what?


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Paul123 Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 109 Location: USA Joined: 11/01/03	Re: Wanderer, is there a path through? Reply #16 - 05/04/10 at 22:22:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	Nice... This is what I envisioned this site to be... A couple of people interested in an opening or line.. exploring the positions ... and comparing and contrasting. very cool.


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linksspringer Senior Member Offline Posts: 376 Joined: 09/25/07	Re: Wanderer, is there a path through? Reply #15 - 05/04/10 at 10:27:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thanks Paul, excellent! Comparing notes: 1.b3 e5 2.Bb2 Nc6 3.e3 d5 4.Bb5 Bd6 5.f4 f6 6.Qh5+ g6 7.Qh4 exf4 8.Nf3!? Kf7 9.Nc3!? A. 9...Nb4 10.O-O-O c6 11.Be2 fxe3 12.dxe3 Qe7 13.e4 Kg7 (your line) and here 14.exd5 leads to even bigger problems for Black. B. 9...a6 10.Bxc6 [10.Be2!?] bxc6 11.exf4 is a tempo-up version of 8.exf4 Kf7 9.Bxc6 bxc6 9.Nf3 which is OK for Black. I am not sure how the extra Nc3 works out after 9...Qe7+. But White can also continue in gambit style with 11.0-0-0 fxe3?! 12.dxe3 followed by 13.e4 with a strong attack. C. 9...Be6 here you take on c6, but perhaps even better is 10.exf4, keeping the Be6 immobile by the attack on d5. In fact I don't see a reasonable move for Black here. D.9...Nce7 wasn't mentioned by you but could be played by someone who knows the line 8.exf4 Kf7 9.Nf3 Nce7! intending Nf5. In our case however, 10.e4! c6 11.Bd3 Kg7 12.0-0 looks really nice. E. I agree that other moves look even worse.


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Paul123 Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 109 Location: USA Joined: 11/01/03	Re: Wanderer, is there a path through? Reply #14 - 05/04/10 at 01:28:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: I have gone back to examining the main line (1.b3 e5 2.Bb2 Nc6 3.e3 d5 4.Bb5 Bd6 5.f4 f6) 6.Qh5+ g6 7.Qh4 exf4 and now the pawn sacrifice 8.Nf3!? Accepting the pawn sacrifice with 8...fxe3 9.0-0 gives White very good compensation, so Black's best according to Jacobs & Tait is 8...Kf7. Here I propose the new move 9.Nc3!? attacking d5 but mainly with the idea of pushing e4 at some point. So far I have not been able to find a way for Black to get out of danger Wow nice job with 8. Nf3 and 9.Nc3 I don't see anything for Black to grab on to. The pawn weakness at f6 and d5 are serious. 1.b3 e5 2.Bb2 Nc6 3.e3 d5 4.Bb5 Bd6 5.f4 f6 6.Qh5+ g6 7.Qh4 exf4 8.Nf3!? Kf7 9.Nc3!? Nb4!? At first glance....I'm thinking might be blacks best. Then maybe 10.0-0-0 c6 11.Be2 [11.a3?? Nxc2! ] 11...fxe3 12.dxe3 Qe7 but... Your 13.e4! += maybe with 13...Kg7 14.a3 dxe4 15.Nxe4 Nd5 16.Nxd6 Qxd6 yet.... I don't like Black's position at all. 9...Be6 10.Bxc6 bxc6 11.exf4 c5? 12.f5! Oh yea!! (11...Bf5 12.0-0-0+=) 9...a6 (doesn't do anything...) 10.Bxc6 bxc6 11.exf4! As a Bird player, I hold an attacking pawn at f4 in very high esteem! 9...Be7? (Why....? when 10.Nxd5! we need not look further) 9...Bf8? (as foolish as 9...Be7? when 10.Nxd5 almost forced is 10...Be6 then 11. Nxf4! a sweet attack! OR 11. Nxf6 Nxf6 12. Ng5+! another nice shot! From the initial 9...Bf8 10. Nxd5 then 10...Bg7!? trying to defend the f6 pawn and the King... just allows 11.Qxf4! or 11.Bc4! Both give White good attacking chances 9...fxe3?! 10.dxe3 Be6 11.e4 a6 12.Bxc6 bxc6 13.0-0-0+= From Black's perspective doesn't look that good to me. Black has done nothing to shore up the weakness at f6 and d5. 9...g5?! No..ah ah ah! 10.Qh5+ Kf8 11.0-0+= It's probable that I have missed something of value.... You probably have all this in your analysis ... Nice job! I'll keep looking ( I play the Nimzo larsen too)


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Paul123 Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 109 Location: USA Joined: 11/01/03	Re: Wanderer, is there a path through? Reply #13 - 05/03/10 at 20:26:30	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 05/02/10 at 20:41:26: 1.b3 e5 2.Bb2 Nc6 3.e3 d5 4.Bb5 Bd6 5.f4 f6 6.Nh3 Nge7 7.fxe5 fxe5 8.0-0 Bf5 9.c4 d4 10.Bxc6+ bxc6 11.g4 Bg6 followed by ...Qd7 and ...O-O-O looks roughly =+ to me. Sure does doesn't it.....Well it was worth a try... 11...Bg6 (for some reason I over looked it... I was thinking that 11...Bg6 12. Qe2 lead to something tactical for white... and 12. exd4 exd4 13. Nf4 Qd7 14. Bxd4 0-0 doesn't look good for white either... Yea its time to deep six 6.Nh3


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linksspringer

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Re: Wanderer, is there a path through?
Reply #12 - 05/02/10 at 21:58:33

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It seems it is time to bury 6.Nh3

(at least as theoretical value is concerned).
I think Markovich is right that 11...Bg6 effectively counters Paul's 11.g4 idea. And after Paul's 10...Qd7 in response to my 10.Ng5, he is right to say that White has trouble mobilising the queen's knight.
Moreover, on another site someone suggested 6.Nh3 a6 to me. Seems weird, what is Black going to do after 7.Bxc6+ bxc6 8.0-0. The engines come up with the remarkable 8...h5! taking h5 away from the queen and seriously threatening Bxh3. Sigh.

I have gone back to examining the main line
(1.b3 e5 2.Bb2 Nc6 3.e3 d5 4.Bb5 Bd6 5.f4 f6)
6.Qh5+ g6 7.Qh4 exf4 and now the pawn sacrifice 8.Nf3!? Accepting the pawn sacrifice with 8...fxe3 9.0-0 gives White very good compensation, so Black's best according to Jacobs & Tait is 8...Kf7. Here I propose the new move 9.Nc3!? attacking d5 but mainly with the idea of pushing e4 at some point. So far I have not been able to find a way for Black to get out of danger.

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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Wanderer, is there a path through? Reply #11 - 05/02/10 at 20:41:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	1.b3 e5 2.Bb2 Nc6 3.e3 d5 4.Bb5 Bd6 5.f4 f6 6.Nh3 Nge7 7.fxe5 fxe5 8.0-0 Bf5 9.c4 d4 10.Bxc6+ bxc6 11.g4 Bg6 followed by ...Qd7 and ...O-O-O looks roughly =+ to me.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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Paul123 Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 109 Location: USA Joined: 11/01/03	Re: Wanderer, is there a path through? Reply #10 - 05/02/10 at 16:35:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	Good analysis Linksspringer... 1.b3 e5 2.Bb2 Nc6 3.e3 d5 4.Bb5 Bd6 5.f4 f6 6.Nh3 Nge7 7.fxe5 fxe5 8.0-0 Bf5 9.c4!? 9... d4!? another interesting move. Both got me looking at the resulting positions. For me, White's in-ability to get his Queen's knight into the game (that is imohis biggest hurdle to over come here) 10.Bxc6+ bxc6 11.g4!? (this is a straight up tactical computer move... I didn't see it. It still needs investigation...but on the surface it gives White the needed initiative to improve his position...) If 11...Be6 12.Ng5!? Qd7 13.h3 Bc5 14.Qe2 dxe3 dxe3 15.Ne4!? Bd4 16.dxe3 Bxb2 17.Qxb2 Ng6 18.Nbc3 ( white get's his Queen's knight into the game...I think white equalizes/ maybe a slight pull for white... and after this point its anybodies game) 18... 0-0-0 19.Rad1 Qe7+= 11... Bd3 12.Rf2 dxe3 13.dxe3 Bc5 14.Qf3 Qd6 15.Nc3 (White again get's his Queen's knight into the game and as before...White equalizes/maybe a slight pull) 15... 0-0-0 16.Ng5+= 10.Ng5!? But..10...Qd7 seems to thwart white's attempts to untangle his queen's knight. 11. exd4 exd4 12. Qh5+ Bg6 13 Qe2 0-0-0 = ( giving the positions an = (although the computer says it is...) imo is an over statement.


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linksspringer Senior Member Offline Posts: 376 Joined: 09/25/07	Re: Wanderer, is there a path through? Reply #9 - 04/21/10 at 14:40:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	TN wrote on 04/21/10 at 13:12:14: Slightly off-topic, but is there anything wrong with playing 5.Ne2, when after say 5...Nf6 6.0-0 0-0 7.Bc6 bc6 8.d3 White has an improved Hippo/Reti because of Black's slightly weakened pawn structure and White's saving of a tempo by not having to fianchetto his bishop? It's still probably equal after Nd2/e4 if Black just maintains the tension, but it looks like an interesting way to play. 5...Bd7 is also possible, but then 6.f4!? might be more testing than it was a move ago. And there is always 6.0-0 Nf6 7.d3 0-0 8.c4 which offers some slight chances of an edge. Let me broaden the topic to include all creative ideas in Larsen's Opening. 1.b3 e5 2.Bb2 Nc6 3.e3 d5 4.Bb5 Bd6 5.Ne2 was discussed in Jacobs & Tait's classic, but not with your d3 follow-up. Looks like a nice way to just head for a middlegame with some imbalance! BTW, perhaps White should delay castling a bit, otherwise a later ...e4 followed by ...Bxh2+ could be a danger. edit: 5...Nge7 looks more difficult to meet. I am reminded of the reverse-colour situation: 1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Nc3 e6 4.Nf3 Bb4 5.Bd3 Ne7!? 6.O-O Bxc3 7.bxc3 d6 as eg played by Larsen(!) as Black. In fact, studying Owen's defence can throw up all kinds of ideas for playing 1.b3.
	« Last Edit: 04/21/10 at 22:19:09 by linksspringer »

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linksspringer Senior Member Offline Posts: 376 Joined: 09/25/07	Re: Wanderer, is there a path through? Reply #8 - 04/21/10 at 13:19:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	@zoo, @Markovich: Thanks! It looks like 10.c5 doesn't work. I have checked lines with Qh5+, but they lead to nothing. Here is another attempt: (1.b3 e5 2.Bb2 Nc6 3.e3 d5 4.Bb5 Bd6 5.f4 f6 6.Nh3 Nge7 7.fxe5 fxe5 8.O-O Bf5 9.c4 d4) 10.Ng5 Now the natural 10...O-O leads to problems after 11.e4! 10...dxe3 11.dxe3 O-O 12.Nc3 Bc5 13.Qe2 Qd3 14.Qxd3 Bxd3 15.Rfe1 Bf5 16.Nge4 about equal.


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