ChessPub Forum - Profylaxis in the main line

Michael Ayton God Member Offline ‘You’re never alone with a doppelgänger.’ Posts: 1977 Location: durham Joined: 04/19/03 Gender:	Re: Profylaxis in the main line Reply #11 - 04/29/10 at 11:18:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hi Ametanoitos, I am glad it was a good point because I had written it after several beers! I'd been to the pub where my clubmate Dave and I play 5-minute games and I'd tried this twice. The second game I played a silly Bxc5 and lost but the first I won nicely! I just love these prophylactic systems where you can just dance around for ever and the opponent can't do a thing without self-destructing!


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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: Profylaxis in the main line Reply #10 - 04/27/10 at 19:52:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	Good point. I'd propably play something like 12...Nc5 13.Ng2 or 13.f3. Generally this looks close to equal either way but as i said i like the flexibility in White's possition and the safe-mode look of it. Maybe a more experienced KID player (Mr Golubev perhaps?) can shape a more valuable opinion.


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Michael Ayton God Member Offline ‘You’re never alone with a doppelgänger.’ Posts: 1977 Location: durham Joined: 04/19/03 Gender:	Re: Profylaxis in the main line Reply #9 - 04/27/10 at 00:10:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	Great thread -- especially the games! Question for Ametanoitos: In your main game (Franic-Neumeier), what is White's most accurate move after [b]12 ...Nc5[/b]? Should this transpose to the game, or lead to independent positions? Another question that occurs to me (dunno how intelligent it is!) is, can White without disadvantage delay Qd2 (e.g. with 12 Kh1 here) so that he can meet ...Nc5 with the Bxc5/Bg4 plan even if Black has played ...b6 and will recapture with this pawn?


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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: Profylaxis in the main line Reply #8 - 04/25/10 at 08:15:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	In fact in the mentioned Carlsen's game, White was a tempo behind (b3+b4 instead of b4) in a known theoritical Bayonet position. But this is not the best option for Black in the Bayonet and even though White had a tempo less according to Mikhalevski's analysis White retained the advantage.


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BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: Profylaxis in the main line Reply #7 - 04/25/10 at 05:52:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ametanoitos wrote on 04/24/10 at 17:31:15: White can play b3+Ba3 as did Carlsen against Morozevic. Bologan mentions a ...Nh5 idea but this can be met effectively with the typical Re1 and after Nf4 Bf1. The nice thing about this Ba3 idea is that Nf3 can come to g5 but also to d3 after ...f5 and this doesn't harm the coordination of White's pieces. It does seem to compare rather favorably with similar Bayonet-type positions. Interesting indeed, I'll check it out more.

	2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE. FIDE based on just 27 games.
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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: Profylaxis in the main line Reply #6 - 04/24/10 at 21:29:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	Sorry, Nd2 not Nd3!


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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: Profylaxis in the main line Reply #5 - 04/24/10 at 17:31:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	White can play b3+Ba3 as did Carlsen against Morozevic. Bologan mentions a ...Nh5 idea but this can be met effectively with the typical Re1 and after Nf4 Bf1. The nice thing about this Ba3 idea is that Nf3 can come to g5 but also to d3 after ...f5 and this doesn't harm the coordination of White's pieces.


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BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: Profylaxis in the main line Reply #4 - 04/24/10 at 12:34:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ametanoitos wrote on 04/24/10 at 11:42:12: Yes, i have noticed this possibility also, but Golubev in his book had a nice idea in mind against this (if i remember a ...a5 move without moving the knight yet). There is also the ...h5 move (no fxg3) which is not so easy as the books say (a tempo ahead of a known unclear line). I have a Glek/Golubev survey from 2001 with their analysis, but Hazai/Ftancik in 2005 updated the analysis considerably. The ...a5 idea is neutered so long as white combines Qd2 and Ng2 (as opposed to Ng2-e3) because the Qd2 will support a b4 advance in the critical variation for the line (the attempted improvement by Hazai/Ftancik in this particular variation, which they list as unclear, is in fact +/- a few moves later). Bologan's recommendation in his book (which is more recent than either one of those) can be met with an effective king walk. The ...h5 lines instead of fxg3, while interesting, are something I agree with Glek/Golubev/Ftancik/Hazai/Bologan on - white is slightly better. Obviously it's still quite complex, however. Quote: Another line i line for White is 9.a4 us Carlsen played against Morozevich. Also in this line there is a nice improvement over Bologan's analysis. 9. a4 could be dangerous, however black has 9...a5 (as Korchnoi found out against Kasparov), which I do believe should transpose back into 9. Ne1; 13. a4 with correct play. How does white favorably avoid this transposition?

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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: Profylaxis in the main line Reply #3 - 04/24/10 at 11:42:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes, i have noticed this possibility also, but Golubev in his book had a nice idea in mind against this (if i remember a ...a5 move without moving the knight yet). There is also the ...h5 move (no fxg3) which is not so easy as the books say (a tempo ahead of a known unclear line). Another line i line for White is 9.a4 us Carlsen played against Morozevich. Also in this line there is a nice improvement over Bologan's analysis.


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BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: Profylaxis in the main line Reply #2 - 04/24/10 at 02:45:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	Interesting line, have looked at the analysis, but don't have any concrete opinion of yet. On a similar note of prophylactic play - my preferred line is the "paradoxical" (Bologan) 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. Be3 f5 11. f3 f4 12. Bf2 g5 13. g4 where equalizing black's chances is not easy (based on my notes a route to equality doesn't exist given some improvements on the only line Bologan gives as equalizing for black with everything else being += based on Bologan's, Hazai's/Ftancik's work on the line) and from a practical perspective black doesn't obtain any sort of attack.

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Re: Profylaxis in the main line
Reply #1 - 04/23/10 at 23:53:55

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Interesting! It sounds like a good idea psychologically to deny the KID players their beloved pawn storm races, as is also a motivation behind the Bayonet and the f3-g4 lines, among others.

The plan reminds me of a section of the book "Techniken des Positionsspiels im Schach" by Terekhin and Bronznik. They discuss "Taimanov's prophylaxis" with Nh4 and g3 against King's Indian formations, but only those where Black has played ...c7-(c6-)c5 (technically a Czech Benoni formation). The authors comment that Black's ...f7-f5 may turn out to be just a weakness that White can target later with Bh3 or exf5 gxf5, Bd3.

Is it fair to say that your line is an attempt to use the same plan against a Classical King's Indian?

The games analysed in Bronznik/Terekhin are:

[Event "Candidates Tournament"]
[Site "Zuerich"]
[Date "1953.09.19"]
[Round "12"]
[White "Taimanov, Mark E"]
[Black "Geller, Efim P"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "E95"]
[Source "ChessBase"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 O-O 5. Nf3 d6 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nbd7 8. Re1 c6 9. Bf1 Re8 10. d5 c5 11. g3 Nf8 12. a3 Ng4 13. Nh4 a6 14. Bd2 h5 15. h3 Nf6 16. b4 b6 17. bxc5 bxc5 18. Rb1 N6d7 19. Qa4 Bf6 20. Nf3 h4 21. Nd1 hxg3 22. fxg3 Nb8 23. Re3 Nh7 24. Reb3 Bd7 25. Qa5 Qc8 26. Nf2 Bd8 27. Qc3 Ba4 28. R3b2 Nd7 29. h4 Ra7 30. Bh3 Qc7 31. Ng5 Nxg5 32. Bxg5 Bxg5 33. hxg5 Kg7 34. Qf3 Qd8 35. Rb7 Rxb7 36. Rxb7 Kg8 37. Bxd7 Bxd7 38. Ng4 Qxg5 39. Rxd7 f5 40. exf5 Rb8 1-0

[Event "Hoogovens"]
[Site "Wijk aan Zee"]
[Date "1971.01.??"]
[Round "8"]
[White "Petrosian, Tigran V"]
[Black "Hort, Vlastimil"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "E64"]
[WhiteElo "2640"]
[BlackElo "2600"]
[Source "ChessBase"]

1. c4 g6 2. d4 Nf6 3. d5 Bg7 4. Nc3 d6 5. g3 e5 6. Bg2 O-O 7. Nf3 c5 8. O-O Nbd7 9. e4 h6 10. Bd2 Ne8 11. Qe2 Kh7 12. a4 b6 13. a5 Rb8 14. axb6 Qxb6 15. Rfb1 a6 16. Bh3 Qb7 17. Nd1 Nb6 18. Bxc8 Qxc8 19. Nh4 Nc7 20. Ne3 Qh3 21. b4 Nd7 22. b5 axb5 23. Ra7 Rfc8 24. Ba5 Nb6 25. cxb5 Qd7 26. Kg2 c4 27. Bxb6 Rxb6 28. Nxc4 Rxb5 29. Nb6 Rxb6 30. Rxb6 Bf6 31. Nf3 Be7 32. Rc6 Bd8 33. Nd2 Qe8 34.Nc4 1-0

[Event "Leningrad Interzonal"]
[Site "Leningrad"]
[Date "1973.06.14"]
[Round "9"]
[White "Kuzmin, Gennadi P"]
[Black "Tal, Mihail"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "E92"]
[WhiteElo "2565"]
[BlackElo "2655"]
[Source "ChessBase"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 g6 4. Nc3 Bg7 5. e4 O-O 6. Nf3 d6 7. Be2 e5 8. O-O Ne8 9. a3 Qe7 10. b4 Nd7 11. Rb1 h6 12. g3 f5 13. Nh4 Qf6 14. exf5 gxf5 15. Bb2 b6 16. Bd3 e4 17. Nxe4 Qxb2 18. Rxb2 fxe4 19. Bxe4 Bxb2 20. Bh7+ Kxh7 21. Qc2+ Kg8 22. Qxb2 Ng7 23. Re1 Ne5 24. Qc3 Bf5 25. f4 Ng6 26. Nxf5 Rxf5 27. bxc5 bxc5 28. Qa5 Rf7 29. Qa6 Rd8 30. Qb5 Ne7 31. Qa5 Rd7 32. Rb1 Ngf5 33. Rb8+ Kg7 34. Qc3+ Nd4 35. Qe3 Ng6 36. Qe8 Nf8 37. Qc8 h5 38. Rb2 Rde7 39. Qd8 Nf5 40. Kf2 Ng6 41. Re2 Rf8 42. Rxe7+ Ngxe7 43. Qd7 Rf7 44. Qd8 Kh7 45. a4 Ng8 46. Qg5 Ng7 47. h3 Ne7 48. g4 Ng6 49. f5 Ne5 50. Ke2 hxg4 51. hxg4 Ne8 52. Qd8 Rf8 53. g5 Kg8 54. Qe7 Ng7 55. f6 Nh5 56. Kd1 Ng6 57. Qxa7 Ne5 58. Qe7 Rf7 59. Qxd6 Nxc4 60. Qh2 Nxf6 61. gxf6 Rxf6 62. Qh4 Ne3+ 63. Ke2 1-0

In this game, from Gelfer's Handbook, Gligoric even throws an exchange on the fire:

[Event "Tel Aviv 6th"]
[Site "Tel Aviv"]
[Date "1966.??.??"]
[Round "7"]
[White "Gligoric, Svetozar"]
[Black "Domnitz, Zadok"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "E94"]
[Source "ChessBase"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 d6 3. Nc3 g6 4. e4 Bg7 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. d5 Nbd7 8. O-O Nc5 9. Qc2 Nh5 10. b4 Na6 11. Rb1 f5 12. g3 f4 13. Qd1 Bh3

14. Nh4!? Bxf1 15. Bxf1 Bf6 16. Nf3 Ng7 17. c5 dxc5 18. Bxa6 bxa6 19. bxc5 g5 20. Nd2 Rb8 21. Rxb8 Qxb8 22. Ba3 Qc8 23. g4 h5 24. h3 Kf7 25. Nc4 Kg6 26. gxh5+ Nxh5 27. Qg4 f3 28. c6 Rh8 29. Bc1 Qxg4+ 30. hxg4 Ng7 31. Nd1 Rb8 32. Bb2 Rb4 33. Nde3 Ne8 34. Bxe5 Bxe5 35. Nxe5+ Kf6 36. N5c4 Rb5 37. e5+ Ke7 38. Kh2 Kd8 39. Kg3 Ke7 40. Kxf3 Rb1 41. Ke4 Re1 42. a3 Re2 43. f3 Rf2 44. Nf5+ Kd8 45. Nd4 Ng7 46. d6 Rf1 47. Na5 1-0

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson

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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Profylaxis in the main line 04/23/10 at 09:41:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	I came across an interesting idea which GM Bauer seems to like and play often in the main line of the KID: 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 (The following idea was part of my knowledge in these positions and knowing this helped me to appreciate the similar idea in the main line better: 7...Nbd7 8. Qc2 c6 9. Rd1 Qe7 10. d5 {now we can open the game with dxc6 if Black tries the attack with ...f5} c5 {closes the position because he wants to play ...f5} 11. g3! {against ...f5} Ne8 12. Nh4 Bf6 13. Ng2 Bg5 14. f4 and White is better according to GM Grivas and known KID theory) 8. d5 Ne7 9. Nh4!? {Bauer} White has a space advantage so it makes sense to try to make the only active possibility of ...f5 harmless. This is a positional line which might appeal to players who don't like the complex main lines. Some analysis with typical ideas: Nd7 (9...Ne8 10. g3 Bh3 11. Re1 f5 12. exf5 Nxf5 13. Nf3 White has a slight advantage) 10. g3 a5 11. Be3 b6 (11... f5 12. exf5 gxf5 13. f4) (11... Nc5 12. Bxc5 dxc5 13. Bg4) 12. Qd2 Kh8 13. Kh1 (13. f4) 13... Ng8 14. Ng2 Nc5 15. f3 Bd7 (15... f5 16. exf5 Bxf5 (16... gxf5 17. f4) 17. Ne1 Nf6 18. Nd3 Nfd7 19. Rae1 Qc8 20. Nf2) 16. Rae1 Qe7 17. Bd1 Rfe8 18. Bc2 Qf8 19. Nh4 Bh6 20. f4 These lines are a mix of games played in this variation and some of my own analysis. I like White's play even thought objectively in some lines Black maybe is equal. What do you think?


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