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I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall. (Read 45610 times)

BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall. Reply #23 - 05/01/10 at 11:23:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	I played the French for a decade, and got it from 1. d4 e6 a whopping once. All 1. d4 e6 did was frustrate Trompowsky players, other than that it was all same ol' same ol'.

	2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE. FIDE based on just 27 games.
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JonathanB Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 449 Location: London Joined: 11/17/07 Gender:	Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall. Reply #22 - 05/01/10 at 10:41:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 04/30/10 at 18:47:39: Interesting, and it reminds me of Palliser's suggestion that you don't really have to have a Sicilian prepared in order to answer 1.Nf3 with 1...c5. But I myself would never dream of doing such a thing in either case. Fair enough ... after all I'm not actually bluffing myself since I have the French in my repertoire. I'm just saying it's very possible. Out of interest ... why wouldn't you go for 1. Nf3 c5 or 1. d4 e6 without a Sicilian/French planned?

	www.streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.com "I don't call you f**k face" - GM Nigel Short.
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Stigma God Member Offline There is a crack in everything. Posts: 3277 Joined: 11/07/06 Gender:	Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall. Reply #21 - 04/30/10 at 22:12:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	Martin Helmer mentioned the Nh3 lines; Win with the Stonewall Dutch should be a particularly good source for those. I know that co-author and CC-champion Ivar Bern in particular has a low opinion of them as tries for advantage. See for example how he handled an experienced GM over the board! [Event "Bergen Sommer op"] [Site "Bergen"] [Date "2002.07.26"] [Round "7"] [White "Yakovich, Yuri"] [Black "Bern, Ivar"] [Result "0-1"] [ECO "A90"] [WhiteElo "2586"] [BlackElo "2362"] [EventCountry "NOR"] [Source "ChessBase"] 1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 e6 4. c4 c6 5. Nh3 d5 6. O-O Bd6 7. Bf4 Be7 8. Nd2 Qb6 9. Nb3 dxc4 10. Nd2 Qxd4 11. Qc2 Nd5 12. Nxc4 Nxf4 13. Nxf4 O-O 14. e4 Qf6 15. e5 Qh6 16. Rad1 g5 17. Nd3 f4 18. Rfe1 Na6 19. Nd6 Nc7 20. gxf4 gxf4 21. Be4 Nd5 22. Kh1 Kh8 23. Rg1 Qh5 24. b4 f3 25. Qb2 b6 26. Ne1 Bd7 27. Rd3 Rf4 28. Rxf3 Raf8 29. Rxf4 Nxf4 30. f3 Bh4 31. Rg4 Bxe1 32. Qc1 Qxe5 33. Nc4 Qc3 0-1 Win with the Stonewall Dutch is good on the Anti-Dutch lines too. The 2.Nc3 chapter is the best ever written on that subject. I also like the Anti coverage on Simon Williams' Killer Dutch DVD; there is no time for deep analysis there, but his selection of lines are excellent particularly for those who want winning chances with Black. OK, I'm not so sure about the insane 1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.e4 Rh7!??, but apart from that it's all good! Williams also covers sidelines with c4 but without g3; I think even Stonewall players should consider playing Classical or Nimzo-Dutch (with ...b6 and ...Bb4) style setups against those. Re: the 1...e6 or 1...f5 debate: I've often done the same thing with the 1...d6 Leningrad/Pirc combo. I think one of the reasons 1...d6 (and maybe in a similar vein 1...e6) works so well against ordinary club players is they don't really have all the transpositions in their repertoire worked out. Many have planned to play an Anti-Dutch to avoid theory, and don't know much about 1.e4 openings. So they end up with the worst of all worlds: Playing into known Dutch lines that they know nothing about, apart from maybe "c4, Nf3, g3, Bg2 and 0-0 is theory, isn't it?!" And voilá, my ridiculously good score with the Leningrad continues!

	Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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TN God Member Offline Posts: 3420 Joined: 11/07/08 Gender:	Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall. Reply #20 - 04/30/10 at 21:15:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 04/30/10 at 13:22:16: It's news to me if you can start out with a Slav and not have to play a Slav most of the time. Black faces problems trying to bring about a Stonewall when he starts out with 1...d5, mainly in that White can often just play Bf4. That's what I thought, anyway. E.g. 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 4.Nf3 f5 5.Bf4 +=. Moskalenko in Revolutionize Your Chess remarkably quotes a game where he as Black starts out this way, and from the comments you would think that there was no penalty to be paid for it. It happens that Moskalenko outplayed this particular opponent after 5.Bf4!, so all is well for Black, to hear him tell it. Furthermore 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 4.Nf3 Bd6 5.e4 +=. White doesn't even have to allow a Noteboom to make Black's Stonewall transsposition difficult. Thus 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 4.e3 f5 5.g4! or 4...Bd6 5.Bd3! f5 6.g4! I agree that the above lines are quite annoying for Black, which is why I usually prefer a Dutch move order to reach a Stonewall. Quote: For my money the many advantages I get going into the Dutch via 1. ... e6 make it a risk worth taking considering how rarely I'm called on my 'French bluff' The only advantage of the 1...e6/2...f5 move order (as opposed to 1...f5) that I can see is that you avoid most of the Anti-Dutch lines. A definite practical advantage, although I quite like facing Anti-Dutch systems since none of them really offer White anything if Black knows his lines, compared to the main line Stonewall where White is a little better.

	All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
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Martin Helmer YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 11 Joined: 04/19/10	Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall. Reply #19 - 04/30/10 at 20:42:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thanks for the answers everyone. Very useful.


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Martin Helmer YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 11 Joined: 04/19/10	Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall. Reply #18 - 04/30/10 at 20:39:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 04/30/10 at 14:09:53: I give up. So, what would you combine the French with?


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall. Reply #17 - 04/30/10 at 18:47:39	Post Tools	Print Post
	Interesting, and it reminds me of Palliser's suggestion that you don't really have to have a Sicilian prepared in order to answer 1.Nf3 with 1...c5. But I myself would never dream of doing such a thing in either case.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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JonathanB Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 449 Location: London Joined: 11/17/07 Gender:	Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall. Reply #16 - 04/30/10 at 18:18:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	Alias wrote on 04/30/10 at 14:28:50: 1...e6 is good if you also play the french. 1...f5 is preferable if you don't. Logical advice but in practice I'm not so sure it's true. I've played 1. ... e6 against 1. d4 for what seems like an eternity and my experience is that I get a transposition to the French once every 3 or 4 years. My conclusion:- 1. ... e6 is playable as a bluff even if you don't play the French. This is true for me anyway (a semi-bluff in my case as I quite like the French even if i don't always play it). I'd also say it's more true for me OTB than in internet games where people seem much more likely to play 2. d4. Don't know why that's the case but it's true. I suspect it also depends on the strength of your opposition (at least in part) and whether or not you'll encounter situations in which your opponent is likely to know you're bluffing. For my money the many advantages I get going into the Dutch via 1. ... e6 make it a risk worth taking considering how rarely I'm called on my 'French bluff'

	www.streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.com "I don't call you f**k face" - GM Nigel Short.
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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10777 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall. Reply #15 - 04/30/10 at 16:50:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	Imo there is one Stonewall line Black should avoid: 1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 d5 5.Bf4 followed by e3, Bd3, Qc2 and castling queenside. White's attack (based on g2-g4) is very dangerous. Fortunately 4...Bb4 is very playable, but it leads to entirely different positions. This deviation is not available after 1.d4 e6 2.c4 d5 3.Nc3 f5 (c6 4.e4 is a dangerous gambit invented by Marshall, while 4.Nf3 f5 5.Bf4 transposes to the line above again) 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.Bf4. The logical conclusion is that the move order I gave above is more accurate. The next problem is 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 3.Bf4 Nf6 4.e3 when for the same reason ...d5 is not a very good idea. Here Black has ...b6 while ...d6 preparing ...e5 should do as well. 1.d4 e6 2.Nc3 d5 most likely will become a French. 1.d4 e6 2.g3 allows Black some independent options, but f5 3.Bg2 Nf6 and 4...d5 should transpose. The last problem I am aware of is 1.c4 f5 2.Nc3 (2.e4 fxe4 3.d3 is not an improved version of the From's Gambit after simply Nf6 4.dxe4 e5 and 5...Bc5) Nf6 3.g3 e6 4.Bg2 and White has the option d3/e4. I don't know how Black should deal with this. PS: 1.Nc3 d5 2.e4 e6 and not 1.Nc3 f5?! 2.e4.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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TonyRo God Member Offline I'm gonna crack your skull! Posts: 1846 Location: Cleveland, OH Joined: 11/26/07 Gender:	Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall. Reply #14 - 04/30/10 at 15:22:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	Martin Helmer wrote on 04/30/10 at 13:56:04: I'll be a bit more specific in order to get you guys going... One issue: When working on transpositions I've been trying to get my king's bishop to d6, but maybe having it on e7 doesn't make too much of a difference on my level... Example: Early Bg5 from white Another issue: Nh3 apparently can be a bit dangerous in certain lines. I haven't found much discussion on what the risk is and how to defend against it. (Especially when it comes early) Hi Martin, I'd also HIGHLY recommend you get Win with the Stonewall Dutch. Such a great book. I seem to remember that in a lot of Nh3 lines, it's useful to tranpose to Classical-type lines where you seek to play ...d6 and ...e5, either tickling the knight on f4 or stopping him from going there at all. I believe the above book has great coverage of all the early tries for White as well. Just suck it up and buy it! You avoid quite a few of the early options with 1...e6, but some still exist that you'll have to study.


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Alias God Member Offline Posts: 1512 Location: East of the river Svartån Joined: 11/19/04	Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall. Reply #13 - 04/30/10 at 14:28:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	1...e6 is good if you also play the french. 1...f5 is preferable if you don't. In the 80's I played 1...d5 2...e6 3...f5 vs most move orders. Not the best, as many books and posts here suggest. Of course, there are anti-dutch lines and lines which are fairly common in club games and not so detailed in books, like non-g3 lines. Look up a few Stonewall players and see what they play vs the "uncommon" lines. Lars Karlsson and Simen Agdestein would be good choices of the 80's. I'm sure there are other players to follow now.

	Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall. Reply #12 - 04/30/10 at 14:09:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	I give up.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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Martin Helmer YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 11 Joined: 04/19/10	Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall. Reply #11 - 04/30/10 at 13:56:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	I'll be a bit more specific in order to get you guys going... One issue: When working on transpositions I've been trying to get my king's bishop to d6, but maybe having it on e7 doesn't make too much of a difference on my level... Example: Early Bg5 from white Another issue: Nh3 apparently can be a bit dangerous in certain lines. I haven't found much discussion on what the risk is and how to defend against it. (Especially when it comes early)


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Martin Helmer YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 11 Joined: 04/19/10	Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall. Reply #10 - 04/30/10 at 13:44:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 04/30/10 at 13:39:31: Martin Helmer wrote on 04/30/10 at 13:37:03: g) (Fits with the french) and thus, possibly h) but i don't know enough to decide. What's your problem? Just play 1...e6 against everything. I was referring to TN's options: Quote: g) 1...e6/2...f5... h) 1...e6/2...d5


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Martin Helmer YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 11 Joined: 04/19/10	Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall. Reply #9 - 04/30/10 at 13:40:39	Post Tools	Print Post
	so, 1..e6 it is. Now what? Quote: With a Dutch move order, only the Anti-Dutch lines are applicable, and none of these should give White an edge with best play, which explains why this is the move order the authors of 'Win with the Stonewall Dutch' recommend. So, maybe not a perfect fit for my needs, but maybe still useful?


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