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I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall. (Read 45605 times)

Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall. Reply #8 - 04/30/10 at 13:39:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	Martin Helmer wrote on 04/30/10 at 13:37:03: g) (Fits with the french) and thus, possibly h) but i don't know enough to decide. What's your problem? Just play 1...e6 against everything.

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Martin Helmer YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 11 Joined: 04/19/10	Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall. Reply #7 - 04/30/10 at 13:37:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	g) (Fits with the french) and thus, possibly h) but i don't know enough to decide.


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall. Reply #6 - 04/30/10 at 13:36:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	Right, the best way to get a Stonewall is to play the French and play 1...e6 against everything. Me, I like the French well enough but the Stonewall makes me want to throw up.

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TonyRo God Member Offline I'm gonna crack your skull! Posts: 1846 Location: Cleveland, OH Joined: 11/26/07 Gender:	Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall. Reply #5 - 04/30/10 at 13:32:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	I don't understand why it's really even worth considering for the OP to play 1...c6 when he's a French player as well. To me, 1...e6 is the clear choice then, avoiding all the second move gambits and intending either the French or the Dutch Stonewall after 2. e4 or 2. c4, respectively.


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall. Reply #4 - 04/30/10 at 13:22:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	It's news to me if you can start out with a Slav and not have to play a Slav most of the time. Black faces problems trying to bring about a Stonewall when he starts out with 1...d5, mainly in that White can often just play Bf4. That's what I thought, anyway. E.g. 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 4.Nf3 f5 5.Bf4 +=. Moskalenko in Revolutionize Your Chess remarkably quotes a game where he as Black starts out this way, and from the comments you would think that there was no penalty to be paid for it. It happens that Moskalenko outplayed this particular opponent after 5.Bf4!, so all is well for Black, to hear him tell it. Furthermore 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 4.Nf3 Bd6 5.e4 +=. White doesn't even have to allow a Noteboom to make Black's Stonewall transsposition difficult. Thus 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 4.e3 f5 5.g4! or 4...Bd6 5.Bd3! f5 6.g4!

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TN God Member Offline Posts: 3420 Joined: 11/07/08 Gender:	Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall. Reply #3 - 04/30/10 at 13:13:20	Post Tools	Print Post
	Here are the move orders off the top of my head: a) 1...f5/2...Nf6/3...e6/4...d5 followed by ...c6 and ...Be7/d6 b) 1...f5/2...Nf6/3...e6/4...c6 followed by ...d5, or in some instances ...d6 (e.g. if Black doesn't like the Nh3 lines) c) 1...f5/2...Nf6/3...e6/4...Be7/5...0-0/6...d5 d) 1...f5/2...Nf6/3...d5/4...e6 e) 1...f5/2...e6/3...d5 f) 1...f5/2...d5 g) 1...e6/2...f5... h) 1...e6/2...d5 (see below) i) 1...d5/2...e6/3...c6/4...f5 j) 1...d5/2...e6/3...c6/4...Bd6/5...f5 k) 1...d5/2...e6/3...f5 l) 1...d5/2...c6/3...e6... m) 1...c6/2...d5... Of these, b and j are probably the best from the transpo trickster perspective, since an unsuspecting opponent may play Nc3, when ...d5 is a good Stonewall for Black due to the slightly misplaced Nc3. I don't trust k, f or e at all, and c is solid but I'm a bit suspicious of it. Each move order has their own cons, which can be classified as: Anti-Dutch lines, Marshall Gambit, 2.e4 transpositions to a French/Caro-Kann, Improved D-pawn specials and Exchange Slav. With a Dutch move order, only the Anti-Dutch lines are applicable, and none of these should give White an edge with best play, which explains why this is the move order the authors of 'Win with the Stonewall Dutch' recommend. The Marshall Gambit should objectively be equal, but it's a minefield for Black and the vast majority of amateurs won't want to go there. The 2.e4 transpositions aren't a hassle for a French player in the case of 1...e6 or Caro-Kann player in the case of 1...c6. With the d-pawn Specials, they are slightly better when Black is committed to ...c6 or ...e6 but still very equal. The Exchange Slav is also not a real hassle. It's completely equal, but both sides have plenty of options to unbalance the position without compromising their position.

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Martin Helmer YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 11 Joined: 04/19/10	Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall. Reply #2 - 04/30/10 at 12:54:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	TN wrote on 04/30/10 at 12:39:24: The only book you need is 'Win with the Stonewall Dutch'. In my view it's undoubtedly the best book out there on the Stonewall and it may even be a contender for 'best opening book of all time'. Thanks for the tip. I'll check it out. Quote: Aagaard's book is also good though, so it pays to examine the illustrative games in this book as well. Will you play the Stonewall via. a Slav move order or a Dutch move order? Or both? That's exactly what I don't have a clue about. What are these 2 move orders?


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TN God Member Offline Posts: 3420 Joined: 11/07/08 Gender:	Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall. Reply #1 - 04/30/10 at 12:39:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	The only book you need is 'Win with the Stonewall Dutch'. In my view it's undoubtedly the best book out there on the Stonewall and it may even be a contender for 'best opening book of all time'. Aagaard's book is also good though, so it pays to examine the illustrative games in this book as well. Will you play the Stonewall via. a Slav move order or a Dutch move order? Or both?

	All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
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Martin Helmer YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 11 Joined: 04/19/10	I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall. 04/30/10 at 12:00:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hi there. I've decided to pick up chess as a hobby again after about 20 years of inactivity since I was a young teenager. 1st step was to build a relatively simple opening repertoire and then start playing on FICS. After some reading I decided to go with the "European triple": English, French & Dutch (The stonewall). The book I have on the Dutch is "the Dutch Stonewall" by Aagaard. Now, the problem is that just because I answer 1.d4 with 1...e6, I'm not necessarily going to get a proper Stonewall. I have a good database to refer to, (and engines), which have helped me to find some transpositions and alternatives, but naturally the fall short in explaining the ideas behind the moves. So, does anyone have any suggestions on what to fill the space between 1..e6 and the Stonewall with? What are the major deviations that I will face? (On FICS! ) I'd rather not buy any more books, but if there's a silver bullet for my situation, I'll consider it. Again, I'm a starting player, so "simple" is better than "perfect". thanks in advance!


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