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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C18: Winawer 7. Qg4 Kf8 (Read 35123 times)
MNb
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Re: Winawer 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #21 - 05/11/10 at 15:55:56
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Quote:
After 11...Nf5 12.Qb4+ Kg8 13.Ra3!? Nc6 14.Qf4 Bd7 15.Bd3 Nce7 16.h4 Ng6 17.Qh2 and I still like White (+=).

So do I, but fortunately the chess laws allow Black to leave the Queen's Bishop on c8 as long as he likes. Immediately 14...Nce7 is more flexible: 15.h4 Ng6 16.Qh2 Nh6 and the e-pawn is so weak, that your plan is practically prevented. But I like 14...f6 15.exf6 Qxf4 even better: 16.f7+ Kxf7 17.Bxf4 Rf8 or 16.Bxf4 gxf6 17.c4 d4. In the first line Black has solved the problem of the King's Rook and will solve the problem of Bc8. Sure pawn e6 is weak, but so are White's c-pawns. In the second one Black has a pontentially strong centre and also will be able to finish his development. In both cases Black might have an edge.

Before deciding upon 9...h5 I have spend a few hours on 11.Qxd4 Nf5 and concluded that Black is OK in all lines.
  
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Re: Winawer 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #20 - 05/11/10 at 15:07:28
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Ametanoitos wrote on 05/11/10 at 14:47:16:
Please don't take this that way! You raised an interesting question. These kind of discussions help us all to learn new things and explore interesting possibilities. Yous idea was interesting and maybe is good also, if someone (or you) refute somehow my line!


Not at all, I meant that I was happy that you gave such a convincing reply so that I do not have to waste time analysing further.
  
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Re: Winawer 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #19 - 05/11/10 at 15:04:29
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Dom called 8.Bd2 the modern approach. Does that mean that is considered the best at the moment?

You gave 8.Bd2 Qc7 9. Bd3 b6 10. Nf3 cxd4 11. cxd4 Ba6 12. O-O Bxd3 13. cxd3 Kg8 14.Ra2 h6 15. Rc1 Nbc6 16. Rac2 Rc8 17. h4 Qd7 18. h5 Kh7 I think this looks comfortable and once we free our rook white should have nothing. Can it really be this simple?
  
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Re: Winawer 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #18 - 05/11/10 at 14:47:16
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Please don't take this that way! You raised an interesting question. These kind of discussions help us all to learn new things and explore interesting possibilities. Yous idea was interesting and maybe is good also, if someone (or you) refute somehow my line!
  
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Re: Winawer 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #17 - 05/11/10 at 14:26:42
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You have proved me wrong!
  
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Re: Winawer 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #16 - 05/11/10 at 13:57:31
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First of all 11.c3 was played in one game. Here i like the simple 11...Qxd1 and 12...b6 with maybe a slight advantage to Black because of the pawnstructure. In these positions the King on f8 is an additional advantage because he is closer to the centre and can go to d7 (when the bishops are exchanged after Ba7)

This is clearer in the line 11.c4 Qxd1 12.Rxd1 dxc4!? (why not? White cannot claim the c file and now the pawn structure is a mess for White) 13.Bxc4 b6! simple chess! This looks safe for Black. An example line is 14.Bb4 Ba6 15.Rc1 Ke8! and Black can be happy. His King can cover the c file invasion, White won't have the bishop pair (i don't think he can avoid the trade) and he has the bad bishop that typically cannot attack anything at the Black squares.


  
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Re: Winawer 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #15 - 05/11/10 at 13:20:21
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Ametanoitos wrote on 05/11/10 at 11:56:19:
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Ne7 7.Qg4 Kf8 8.a4 Qc7 9.Nf3 h5 10.Qf4 cxd4 11.Qxd4 Nbc6 12.Qc5 Bd7 and now how about this idea: 13.Ba3 h4!? 14.h3 Rh5! when the move ...h5 shows it's value! Of course this is not so easy but in general the ...h5 gives some scope for the h8 Rook.

Also in the 8.Qd1 line the 8...Qa5 9.Bd2 cxd4! move is a nice touch because ...Qa4 comes with tempo at d4 showing the drawback of 8.Qd1.


In the 8.Qd1 line that you gave, what about 11.c4 Qxd1 12.Rxd1 b6 13.cxd5 Nxd5 14.Rc1 Bb7 15.Nf3 Ke7 16.Bd3 seems very unclear to me and it is not necessarily so that black is ok yet.   

What is your analysis on this Ametanoitos?
  
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Re: Winawer 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #14 - 05/11/10 at 11:56:19
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1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Ne7 7.Qg4 Kf8 8.a4 Qc7 9.Nf3 h5 10.Qf4 cxd4 11.Qxd4 Nbc6 12.Qc5 Bd7 and now how about this idea: 13.Ba3 h4!? 14.h3 Rh5! when the move ...h5 shows it's value! Of course this is not so easy but in general the ...h5 gives some scope for the h8 Rook.

Also in the 8.Qd1 line the 8...Qa5 9.Bd2 cxd4! move is a nice touch because ...Qa4 comes with tempo at d4 showing the drawback of 8.Qd1.
  
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Re: Winawer 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #13 - 05/11/10 at 11:56:08
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After 11...Nf5 12.Ba3+ Kg8 13.Qc5 Qxc5 14.Bxc5 I would rather play White but it's certainly not much, and 13.Qb4 Nd7 14.Bd3 (idea 14...a5 15.Qf4 Qxc3+ 16.Ke2) doesn't seem to work after 14...Nxe5!, but 12.Qb4+ looks good to me. Now 12...Qe7?! is bad because of 13.Qf4 and 12...Kg8 can be met conservatively by 13.Bd2, but I like 13.Ra3!? better. After a later c4 the rook might become active on the 3rd rank. The Queen is heading for f4 and the Bf1 wants to get exchanged on f5. Here's a possible sequence that I find reasonable without engine at hand: 13.Ra3 Nc6 14.Qf4 Bd7 15.Bd3 Nce7 16.h4 Ng6 17.Qh2 and I still like White (+=).
  
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Re: Winawer 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #12 - 05/11/10 at 10:06:08
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I disagree. The point of 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Ne7 7.Qg4 Kf8 8.a4 Qc7 9.Nf3 h5 10.Qf4 cxd4 11.Qxd4 is to blockade the kingside and secure f5 for a knight. After 11...Nf5 (iso the premature Nbc6) Black is fine and perhaps more. One of my opponents apparently thought the same, as he did not play 11.Qxd4 indeed.
  
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Re: Winawer 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #11 - 05/11/10 at 09:14:59
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I don't think 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Ne7 7.Qg4 Kf8 8.a4 Qc7 9.Nf3 h5 10.Qf4 cxd4 11.Qxd4 Nbc6 12.Qc5 Bd7 compares favourably to the line 9...cxd4 10.Qxd4 Nbc6 11.Qc5 Bd7 because the free move h5 is useless at best IMO. 

For instance in Gongora Reyes, Maikel (2454) - Nogueiras, Jesus (2533), 2005, Black after 12. Ba3 chose to untangle with 12...Kg8 13.Bd3 Ng6 which would not have been that good with a pawn on h5: 14.Bxg6 fxg6 15.Qe3 +/-.
 
12.Bb5!? from Ivanchuk, Vassily (2735) - Nikolic, Predrag (2625), 1991, is probably more dangerous if Black cannot do without a6, which weakens the dark squares even more. The next moves were 12...a6 13.Bd3 Rc8 14.Ba3 Qa5 15.O-O Qxc5 16.Bxc5 f6 17.Rfb1 Nd8 18.Bb6 Nec6 19.exf6 gxf6 20.Nd2 Kg7 21.f4 Re8 22.Nb3 Re7 23.c4 +=. 

White must no be afraid of exchanging queens in these lines and Black usually faces an unpleasant defence. 
  
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Re: Winawer 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #10 - 05/10/10 at 23:02:15
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There are some new ideas above that revive Black's position imo because he has some problems at present. In the last position i give Black has a fantastic game. I don't see a big risk for Black here.
  
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Re: Winawer 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #9 - 05/10/10 at 22:58:38
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Some variations that can form a repertoire with 7...Kf8. Suggestions to improve are welcome

[Annotator "Ametanoitos"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Ne7 7. Qg4 Kf8

{Now there are plans with Qa5+Qa4 (given in NCO) and b6+Ba6 or plans with Qc7 and b6. After the exchange of light-squared bishops Black can play h6+Kh7 and free the Rh8} 

8. a4

(8. h4 Qc7 9. Qd1 b6 {simple chess!} 10. h5 h6 11. Rh3 Ba6)

(8.Bd2 Qc7
 
(8... Qe8 9. a4 
(9. Nf3 Qa4 10. Ra2 b6 11. Qf4 h6 12. Bd3 Ba6) 
9... Bd7 10. a5 Bb5) 

9. Bd3

(9. Rc1 Qa5 (9... b6 10. Bd3 Ba6) 10. Nf3 Qxa3 11. Be2 Nbc6 12. O-O c4 13. Ra1 Qb2 14. Rfc1 Qb6 15. Rcb1 Qd8 16. Qf4 h6 17. Bc1 Kg8 18. Ba3
b6 19. h4 Bb7 20. h5 Qd7 21. Nh2 Kh7 22. g4 (22. Qxf7 Raf8) 22... Rhf8 {and
Black seems to defend easily}) 

9... b6 10. Nf3
(10. dxc5 Qxe5+) 
(10. Nh3 Ba6 11. Nf4 Bxd3 12. cxd3 Nbc6 13. O-O Kg8 14. Nh5 Ng6) 

10... cxd4

(10... Ba6 11.dxc5 bxc5 12. Bxa6 Nxa6 13. c4 and i like White) 

11. cxd4 Ba6 12. O-O Bxd3 13. cxd3 Kg8 14.Ra2 h6 15. Rc1 Nbc6 16. Rac2 Rc8 17. h4 Qd7 18. h5 Kh7)

(8. Qd1 Qa5 9. Bd2 cxd4!
(9... Qa4 10. Qb1 b6 11. Bb5) 
10. cxd4 Qa4
{now Qd4 is the threat} 
11. Be3 
(11. Qb1 Qxd4 12. Nf3 Qe4+)
(11. Rb1 Qxd4 12. Nf3 Qe4+ 13. Be2 Nbc6 14. Bc3 b6 15. O-O Qa4 16. Ng5 Ba6 17. Bxa6 Qxa6 18. Qh5 Ng6) 
(11. Nf3 b6=) 
11... b6=)

(8.Bd3 Qa5 9. Bd2 Qa4 10. Ra2 b6 {NCO})
(8. Nf3 Qa5 9. Bd2 Qa4 10. Ra2 b6 {NCO})

8... Qc7 9. Nf3 

(9. Ba3 cxd4 10. Qxd4 Nbc6 11. Qc5 Qxe5+) 
9... h5!
{this seems best!}
(9... b6 10. Ba3 Kg8 11. Bb5 Ba6 12. c4 
{this is White's idea})

10. Qf4
(10. Qg3 Nf5 11. Qg5 cxd4) 
10... cxd4 11. Qxd4 Nbc6 12. Qc5 Bd7 13. Bd3
(13. c4 Rc8 14. cxd5 exd5) 
13... Qa5 14. Qa3 d4 15. Bd2 Nxe5 16. cxd4 Nxf3+ 17.gxf3 Qc7 18. O-O Bc6



  
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Re: Winawer 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #8 - 05/10/10 at 22:30:27
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Dean wrote on 05/10/10 at 21:21:49:
After 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Qc7 white normally plays 7. Qg4 expecting 7.. f5

But 7... Kf8!? is an alternative, confusing white a bit, but often transposing while Ne7 is difficult to avoid.

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Ne7 7.Qg4 Kf8 8. Bd2 Qe8!?

is interesting, with the idea to go to a4 in another triangle.

After 9.a4 Bd7 10.a5 Bb5 still black exchanges the bishop...


I don't trust 6...Qc7 7.Qg4 Kf8 because Black may want to have the Queen on another square.
6...Ne7 7.Qg4 Kf8 8.Bd2 Qe8 looks intriguing though. Perhaps even more flexible is 8...Bd7 as a4 is also a fine square for Black's Bishop.
  
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Re: Winawer 7. Qg4 Kf8
Reply #7 - 05/10/10 at 21:21:49
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dom wrote on 05/09/10 at 16:00:38:
Hi Dave90,

I think theorical value is "good line for Black positional player" (my POV)

I recall first moves (because I am trying to improve my index  Smiley ): 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Ne7 7.Qg4 Kf8

This Kf8 move happens in other positions too:

- 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 Ne7 5.Qg4!? Kf8 (5...c5 can lead to Spassky-Murey line with 6.dxc5 ; 5...Nf5 is line analyzed by Kindermann in the oo-Winawer book ; 5..oo can lead to main lines except for 6.Bg5 Hebden vs E Prie, 1984 ....where I advice the Nd7 move as played in similar position Ivkov-Angos,1960 ) 

- 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 Ne7 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Nc6!? 7.Qg4 Kf8

- 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 b6 5.Qg4 Kf8

- 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.Qg4 (C17 Russian variation Couso-Berg,Stockholm 2002 (NIC YB 66)) Kf8? ... and here Watson gives the main idea for White: 6.dxc5! Bogoljubow-Fry,SouthSea 1950 

With the Kf8 move, Black is playing a slow positional system compared to other main lines (the oo Winawer or Nf5). 

It's "defensive" system according to the common idea of economy in defence: king is used alone to defend the g7 weakness. This economy can be used by Black for a queenside counte-attack usually along the c-file. 

Not so active Rh8 and some weakness on dark squares are the main disatvantages...but Black feel safe without now square weakness. In the long term plan, Black can seek where to put his king in safe place: going to h7 after h6 move ? going to queenside ? staying on f8 square ?  

Here are some variations, 8.Bd2! being the "modern" move and 8.h4 the old one and quoted 8.h4?! in Short's old book about French.

A) 8.Bd2 Qc7 (8...Qa5 9.h4 Qa4 10.Rh3! Videki-Vareille,Toulouse 1995 (McDonald)...hungarian Videki won CEIT tournament this 1995 year ; 8...b6 Apicella-Legky,Saint Quentin en Yvelines 2003 (EE Juin 2003) ) 9.Bd3!? Kristjannsson's idea (9.Rc1 Qa5!? Polgar-Nikolic,Linares 1997)  b6 10.Nf3 (10.Nh3 Ba6 Leko-Nikolic,Bastia 2001; or 10...cxd4) Ba6 

Interesting game is: Stefansson-Nikolic,Elista 1998 ... and you can work about Nikolic's games in this line


B) 8.h4 Qc7!?  Nikolic's novelty in his game vs Kasparov in Horgen 1994 (8...b6 is quieter) 9.Qd1! and now 9...b6 with the common plan (exchange light bishop square with Ba6..and maybe a later h6-Kg8-Kh7) 

you can reach same position after 8...b6 9.Qd1 Qc7 ... it can be useful to work both lines with 8...b6 or 8..Qc7

C) 8.a4 Qc7 9.Nf3 b6 Aschenbrenne-Eingorn,Graz 1998 10.Ba3 Ba6  and Djurhuus-Ostenstad,Norway 2004

D) 8.Nf3 Qc7 Sokolov Andrei-Crut,St Chely d'Aubrac 2004 9.Bd2 cxd4 Stefansson-Nikolic,Elista 1998 see A)

E) 8.Bd3 Qc7 9.Bd2 transposes

F) 8.Qd1 Qa5 9.Bd2 Qa4 10.Nf3 b6 11.c4 Ba6 Ziatdinov-Levitt,Dublin 1991 (Psakhis) or 11.Bd3 Ba6 Beliavsky-Nikolic,Tilburg 1993





Nice summary. Some things to add:

After 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Qc7 white normally plays 7. Qg4 expecting 7.. f5

But 7... Kf8!? is an alternative, confusing white a bit, but often transposing while Ne7 is difficult to avoid.

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Ne7 7.Qg4 Kf8 8. Bd2 Qe8!?

is interesting, with the idea to go to a4 in another triangle.

After 9. a4 Bd7 10. a5 Bb5 still black exchanges the bishop...


  
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