(UTC)
Latest Updates:
  ChessPub Forum › Chess Publishing Openings › 1. d4 d5 2. c4 › Slav › Why not ...Ne4 in the Slav exchange?
(Moderators: proustiskeen, Jupp53)
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Why not ...Ne4 in the Slav exchange? (Read 26790 times)
boki
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 181
Joined: 04/02/08
Re: Why not ...Ne4 in the Slav exchange?
Reply #18 - 03/22/14 at 17:09:37
Post Tools
Is 9.Bb5 Bg7 10.Ne5 Bxg7 11.Bxe5 0-0 and now 12.Bf4 a Problem for black ? White has the pair of Bishops at least but black can Play 12...bf5 and Rc8
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1429
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Why not ...Ne4 in the Slav exchange?
Reply #17 - 06/22/12 at 13:26:21
Post Tools
9...Qa5 seems fine indeed
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2924
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Why not ...Ne4 in the Slav exchange?
Reply #16 - 06/06/12 at 12:48:53
Post Tools
Indeed - seems to me Ametanoitos that your analysis/summary is basically correct and ...Ne4 also holds up well against the Exchange Slav. I don't see anything here to fear for Black. In the 9.Ne5 line I also think that after the original and older move 9...Qa5 Black should also be OK. I think the reason its not more fashionable is just the type of positions it leads to, often more Grunfeld-like which may not be the first inclination of most Slav players, especially when there are plenty of other alternatives available.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1429
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Why not ...Ne4 in the Slav exchange?
Reply #15 - 06/04/11 at 15:40:35
Post Tools
There is no need to thank me. Other members like TN, Markovic and Mnb (and i would say BPaulsen even though many times he keeps the details for himself as it is many times he correct thing to do)  have offered much more than me in this foroum.

I haven't worked on the recommendations here for the White side but i will do sometime soon and i'll post my thoughts.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SteelyDanIII
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 86
Joined: 05/14/10
Re: Why not ...Ne4 in the Slav exchange?
Reply #14 - 05/27/11 at 16:55:32
Post Tools
Thanks for this post Ametanoitos. Really appreciated how much you put into your posts on the forum!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2534
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Why not ...Ne4 in the Slav exchange?
Reply #13 - 03/10/11 at 15:39:29
Post Tools
TN wrote on 03/08/11 at 06:11:20:
Instead of 9...Bg7, why not 9...Nxe5 10.Bxe5 f6 11.Bg3 Bg7 12.Bd3 0-0 with equality, as played by L'Ami? 

9...Qa5 also deserves attention.


After 9...Nxe5 10.Bxe5 f6 11.Bg3 Bg7 12.Bd3 0-0 I would prefer White after 13.Qb3, when if 13...Kh8 14.h4! looks strong.  I don't think these are the "winning chances" Black is after.

In my blindfold line above, 9...Bg7 10.Nxc6 bxc6 11.Qa4 0-0 12.Bd3 c5 13.Qc6 is no good because of 13...Qb6!  So maybe 12...c5 is the right way to go, though White looks slightly better to me after 13.0-0 c4 14.Bc2 Bd7 15.Qa3 and a little moreso after 13...Bd7 14.Bb5.  Again I just don't see the winning chances Black is after; obviously there's plenty of chess to be played, but White's rooks are poised to take over the b-file and I think Black's on the defensive.

Call me old fashioned, but playing 6...Ne4 and then 7...Nxc3 unprovoked in the opening should lead to an edge for White.  I'm not up on the latest theory, but I think keeping a lot of pieces on the board with 6...e6 and possibly chasing after White's Bishop on f4 is the most unbalancing way to play.  It wouldn't surprise me if White kept an edge there as well, but at least there's more scope for maneuvering and outplaying your opponent.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 3420
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: Why not ...Ne4 in the Slav exchange?
Reply #12 - 03/08/11 at 06:11:20
Post Tools
Instead of 9...Bg7, why not 9...Nxe5 10.Bxe5 f6 11.Bg3 Bg7 12.Bd3 0-0 with equality, as played by L'Ami? 

9...Qa5 also deserves attention.
  
All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2534
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Why not ...Ne4 in the Slav exchange?
Reply #11 - 03/08/11 at 01:03:30
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 03/07/11 at 18:48:23:
ECO's best-play line was 12. Bd3 Bd7 13. 0-0 c5 14. Bb5 Bxb5 15. Qxb5 Qb6 16. Rfb1 Qxb5 17. Rxb5 Rfc8 18. Rb7 with the idea of Bc7.


That does look like it gives White an enduring edge and denies Black the winning chances he wants.  Can Black improve with 12...c5?  I apologize but I'm doing this in my head (still at work).  13.Qc6 Qa5 14.Qxa8 Qxc3+ 15.Ke2 Bg4+ looks good for Black, right?  But what happens if White just plays 14.0-0; is he just winning the pawn on c5?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4969
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Why not ...Ne4 in the Slav exchange?
Reply #10 - 03/07/11 at 18:48:23
Post Tools
ECO's best-play line was 12. Bd3 Bd7 13. 0-0 c5 14. Bb5 Bxb5 15. Qxb5 Qb6 16. Rfb1 Qxb5 17. Rxb5 Rfc8 18. Rb7 with the idea of Bc7.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fling
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1591
Joined: 01/21/11
Gender: Male
Re: Why not ...Ne4 in the Slav exchange?
Reply #9 - 03/07/11 at 18:38:06
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 03/07/11 at 15:13:51:
fling wrote on 03/07/11 at 10:01:53:

Apparently, then the critical line would be Ametanoitos' line
9. Ne5 Bg7 10. Nxc6 bxc6 11. Qa4 O-O. Lakdawala only gives 11...Bd7.

To me, 11 ...0-0 looks like a very interesting move and probably an important improvement.


11...0-0 is the main move in ECO (now about 7 years old), which gives it as leading to a slight advantage for White; it thinks 11...Bd7 is worse.


Sorry, don't have ECO. I agree, it looks like a slight advantage for White after 11 ...0-0, but at least the position is unbalanced and there is a lot of play for Black as well.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2534
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Why not ...Ne4 in the Slav exchange?
Reply #8 - 03/07/11 at 18:04:17
Post Tools
Kramnik did play a nice game in this line, but White has improvements.  I haven't actually seen Lakdawala's book, but back when I was looking for winning chances against the Exchange Slav I also came to the conclusion that 6...Ne4 was dubious.  Maybe I'll supply some lines later (I'm at work).

Now I would favour some type of Botvinnik/Dreev plan with ...e6, leaving the Bishop on c8, and playing ...Nh5.  I don't really play the Slav any more so I don't know what exact move order is best.

Edit: After using Amazon to check the game mentioned by Alias, Lakdawala's conclusion agrees with my own.  I always believed 6...Ne4 is dubious, but I'll check Ametanoitos' analysis later.  Specifically (and without a board) I wonder if White can improve after 9. Ne5 Bg7 10. Nxc6 bxc6 11. Qa4 O-O, maybe by not taking the c6-pawn right away.

Woops, edit again: I overlooked Kylemeister's post, it seems this is all established theory.  How does the ECO line continue?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4969
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Why not ...Ne4 in the Slav exchange?
Reply #7 - 03/07/11 at 15:13:51
Post Tools
fling wrote on 03/07/11 at 10:01:53:

Apparently, then the critical line would be Ametanoitos' line
9. Ne5 Bg7 10. Nxc6 bxc6 11. Qa4 O-O. Lakdawala only gives 11...Bd7.

To me, 11 ...0-0 looks like a very interesting move and probably an important improvement.


11...0-0 is the main move in ECO (now about 7 years old), which gives it as leading to a slight advantage for White; it thinks 11...Bd7 is worse.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ANDREW BRETT
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 622
Joined: 07/07/06
Re: Why not ...Ne4 in the Slav exchange?
Reply #6 - 03/07/11 at 14:39:03
Post Tools
From memory Didn't Kramnik beat Portish in Biel interzonal 93 with this ?

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1429
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Why not ...Ne4 in the Slav exchange?
Reply #5 - 03/07/11 at 14:30:34
Post Tools
I found this "London System" book just awful. Not worth the money imo, so i wouldn't take seriously comments like that. I am very interested in any feedback on those Slav lines.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fling
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1591
Joined: 01/21/11
Gender: Male
Re: Why not ...Ne4 in the Slav exchange?
Reply #4 - 03/07/11 at 10:01:53
Post Tools
Alias wrote on 03/07/11 at 07:42:01:
The Lakdawala book on the London says "The reality may be that the entire 6...Ne4?! line just stinks for Black!"

(Use the look inside on Amazon to check game 80. Renet-Vavra, 2006)


Apparently, then the critical line would be Ametanoitos' line
9. Ne5 Bg7 10. Nxc6 bxc6 11. Qa4 O-O. Lakdawala only gives 11...Bd7.

To me, 11 ...0-0 looks like a very interesting move and probably an important improvement.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo
 
  « Board Index ‹ Board Top  

ChessPub Forum » Powered by YaBB 2.6.12!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2025. All Rights Reserved.

Valid RSS Valid XHTML Valid CSS Powered by Perl Source Forge