Stigma wrote on 07/31/10 at 13:29:14:

I suppose you disagree with Kierkegaard here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leap_of_faith

Stigma wrote on 07/25/10 at 18:30:00:


Science requires reason. Faith needs no reason. Either you have it or you don't have it. Thus I do not mean literally that God said to Adam, "Trust me." and that Satan said to God, "Listen to me." That is my interpretation of that part of Genesis.

This doesn't mean I believe all parts of the Bible. For instance, try role reversal in Genesis. If at all points in Genesis you put in Satan whereever you see "God" and everywhere you see "Satan" put in God, can you tell which one is good and which one is evil?

After all, God, forced women to bear their children in sorrow i.e. God forced all women of child-bearing age to experience extreme pain in childbirth, then, of course, they die at some point. 

Do you think in our society you could inflict that amount of pain and suffering on any human being? 

God tortured Eve and all women by forcing them to experience extreme pain in childbirth. That is truly the meaning of, "cruel and unusual punishment".

It is rumored that Satan can't lie to God. Of course he can! Look at the Story of Job. If Satan had come to God and said to God, "I want to torment Job." God probably would have said, "No!!" 

So what does Satan do? He comes up with a brilliant scheme. He goes up to God and says to God, "You're guy Job isn't very loyal, given half a chance he'll renounce his loyalty to you." God goes, "Of course Job is loyal to me!" Satan strokes God's ego and says, "Mind if I torment him." God goes, "Sure, go ahead we must test Job's loyalty."

Satan didn't want to torment Job to test Job's loyalty to God, he just wanted to torment Job to torment Job and he got God's blessing to do it! 

There are little known chapters to the Bible here. Did you read the part where Satan attached a bucket of chum to Job's leg and dumped in a pool full of sharks?

Unfortunately, this is known as testing to destruction.

sloughter wrote on 07/25/10 at 11:59:02:


What is this but a vile ad hominem attack?

sloughter wrote on 07/25/10 at 11:30:47:


The essential question is, how to understand the field of experience?  One useful conceptual construct in this endeavor is "reality," as opposed to one's dreams, wishes and imaginings.  And given the current cultural situation, a critical question has become, does reality include any spiritual,  non-material entities, such as gods, souls, ghosts, demons, devils, angels, magic, miracles, life after death, and so on, and so forth; and if these things don't seem to be constituents of reality, what is the point of believing in them?  Why keep saying that Santa Claus exists when it's quite obvious that the presents under the Christmas tree come from our parents, and if you go to the North Pole, there are no magical workshops?  This is what we're discussing, not what it says in the book of Genesis or what the definition of "faith" is.

The question is an important one, because its answer implies what our attitude should be toward religious institutions and their priests.  If the world is indeed actuated by Hubert the Magical Slug, and if He sits in judgement upon us, we should flock into His temples, pour sacrificial slime upon His alter, contribute money to His priests, and conduct ourselves according to the chapters and verses of the Liber Gastropodis, in particular organizing our sex lives on hermaphroditic principles.  If Hubert does not exist, then it's all a crock, and we can laugh at Hubert's priests, who are at best misguided and at worst charlatans.  And we can spend our Sunday mornings reading the New York Times instead of in Hubert's temple, taking communion from the Cup of Mucus.  

sloughter wrote on 07/25/10 at 11:30:47:


Why don't you just deal with the arguments that are on the table (see foregoing thread), rather than making pejorative metaphors about people who disagree with you?  It is not only atheists about whom it is possible to construct pejorative metaphors.

But permit me to deal in sequence, and personally, with the things from which atheists supposedly isolate themselves:

Faith I do have in many things, such as that other people have minds closely analogous to my own; that the higher animals have minds somewhat less analogous to my own; that some of the lower orders of life have glimmerings of consciousness but probably not minds much like my own; that stones and trees do not have minds; that the rear side of some house, whose front I behold from the street, is house-like and not, for example, a writhing mass of snakes; that Venice actually exists and that when I visit it, will reveal itself to be a old city built upon islands in a shallow lagoon; that I was nothing before I quickened in the womb and that I will be nothing after I die; that nothing exists or happens that is not in principle explainable in terms of matter and energy; that nature is chaotic and cares absolutely nothing for man; that human welfare in this world depends on fate, chance and intelligent action by men; and that all religious belief is a delusion.  Those are among the principal articles of my faith.  I most readily agree, you see, that atheism is a belief-system;  just a very economical one.

Hope I do have, and its main objects are the welfare of my loved ones and the betterment of the general human condition.

Love I do have, intensely for my wife and sons; very much for my close relatives; much, I modestly claim, for human beings in general, though I will admit that I think that a number of my fellow-men, particularly among the rich and powerful, are well deserving of the guillotine.

Spirituality I strive to avoid, naturally enough, since I deny the existence of spirits, but also because it plays into the hands of organized religion, which I perceive to be an instrument of social control by powerful forces that deserve to be overthrown.

God, whether yours or Hubert the Magical Slug, I deny.

sloughter wrote on 07/25/10 at 11:30:47:


Well I find it interesting that anyone believes literally in the Book of Genesis, given what is well known about the origin and development of life on this planet; and particularly that they believe in the idea of original sin.  Or if you do believe in the truth of the established account of the origin of our species, where was our original sin?

But I also find it interesting that you associate love with your god; isn't it obvious that love is an emotion that exists among some of the higher animals and that a propensity for love is an adaptation useful to the development of collaboration?  Where else in nature do we find love?  I'm all for love, of course, but that's because I'm a human being; I doubt that I would feel the same if I were a preying mantis.  Like most people who believe in gods, you're anthropomorphizing, you see? 

sloughter wrote on 07/25/10 at 11:30:47:


Only believe, eh?  But that's what Hubert's priests say.  Which priests am I supposed to believe?

sloughter wrote on 07/25/10 at 11:30:47:


Well if discussion is impossible, why are you here discussing?  But you saying that there are some true things that cannot be expressed in any language?  That puzzles me, since truth is something that applies to propositions, and propositions are inherently linguistic.

MNb wrote on 05/31/10 at 02:08:26:


You cannot comprehend true evil unless you have experienced it. Imagine having the top of your head cut off with a hacksaw. Someone pours a bucket of sewage into your brain. Your brain is swimming in sewage. That's not the evil part. The evil part is that you enjoy it.

MNb wrote on 07/25/10 at 11:42:45:


Edited:

As I already wrote, you should ask GM Kosten, not me. I disagree that this fact is interesting.

sloughter wrote on 07/25/10 at 11:30:47:

I agree when it comes to spirituality and god. But if you imply that atheists cannot experience hope and love your god has struck you with blindness.

Stigma wrote on 06/13/10 at 23:23:33:


In Genesis God said to Adam, "Trust me" Satan said to Eve, "Listen to me". God gave Adam faith. Satan gave Eve logic. The phrase "Listen to me" is the prelude to logic. The use of logic to destroy faith is original sin. If faith needed proof, it wouldn't be faith. 

By the way---all of those of you who rely on the Bible for guidance, consider this. The order and sequence of creation are very important. God did not have Adam and Eve supervise creation. They come at the end of creation just as evolution dictates. Now comes the fun part. We are led to believe that Eve is little more than an appendage of Adam, but consider this. Eve supersedes Adam; she is the last act of God's creation. Dust is to Adam as Adam is to Eve.

Atheists can be likened to intelligent ants crawling around inside a glass bottle. To them their entire universe is within the glass bottle. Outside the glass bottle are faith, hope, love, faith, spirituality, God, etc.

Now scientists are repeating the act of Genesis that led to our present misery i.e. trying to reach outside that glass bottle and drag faith, hope, love, God and spirituality from outside the bottle and clutch them to their chest and bring them into the bottle.

Faith has no explanation. If it did it wouldn't be faith. To an atheist fluent in English only, talking to you is like a Russian trying to explain the universe to you. Since you don't speak the language you have no comprehesion.