Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 13 14 [15] 16 17 ... 19
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Religion WARNING: CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC (Read 111216 times)
Viceroy
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 123
Joined: 08/18/05
Gender: Male
Re: Religion WARNING: CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC
Reply #61 - 06/07/10 at 09:01:16
Post Tools
S-F 
Science is a way of knowing.  It is founded on faith No. It's founded on facts, not faith.

there is absolutely no words that can change the way I believe You see, that's the crucial difference; Science forces you to change what you believe in the light of new facts.  You on the other hand, just cherry pick the bits you like about Christianity/religion, then ignore all the rest.

One thing that was interesting in this thread: the atheists knew their bible better than you! Wink

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
YaBB Moderator
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Religion WARNING: CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC
Reply #60 - 06/07/10 at 04:30:24
Post Tools
Thanks, MNb, for pointing out some of the historical inaccuracies of the telling of Galileo's life.

One of the basic precepts of science is that it is tenuous.  That is, scientific knowledge is subject to change if evidence requires it.

Having said that, the theory of evolution anticipated genetics! (Yeah, genetics wasn't even around when Darwin posited his theory!)  Evolution is a brilliant theory, and we shouldn't get bogged down in the semantics that it's "only" a theory. It is the basis for modern biology.

Science is a way of knowing.  It is founded on faith.  All knowledge is merely strongly held belief.  We could deny everything and be complete nihilists, but Descartes tried to work his way out of that rabbit hole.

There is no rational proof of God.  There also is no rational proof that God does not exist, despite Markovich's claim.  If you believe in God, you will see the flaw in Markovich's argument.  Descartes' "proof of God" also falls flat.

One reason that I didn't want this thread to exist is that there is absolutely no words that can change the way I believe and I doubt that there are any words that can change the way Markovich believes.  Belief is beyond reason.

But, I am glad to see that this thread has been extremely popular and the writers have shown proper decorum, if not respect for each other's opinions.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10775
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Religion WARNING: CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC
Reply #59 - 06/07/10 at 03:45:21
Post Tools
Wouldn't that be still an adaption of the evolution theory? That was Popper's objection, if I am not mistaken.
Btw I am playing advocate of the devil, because I am not sure either. I rather think of the evolution theory as a scientific one indeed, but am not entirely sure about my atheistic biases.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Spree K
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 26
Joined: 10/22/08
Gender: Male
Re: Religion WARNING: CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC
Reply #58 - 06/07/10 at 03:03:09
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 06/06/10 at 23:11:13:

Wrong, it's a hypothesis. And according to Popper it's not even scientific, as it cannot be falsified.

I'm not sure about this kind of claim. It seems to be possible to falsify natural selection, at least in the same sense a scientific theory can be accepted. It is true that it can never be completely disproven, but if for instance, fossilized rabbits were found in the pre-Cambrian, I think that would mostly falsify natural selection. Probably some people would still believe it, but the scientific community would look for an alternative theory.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10775
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Religion WARNING: CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC
Reply #57 - 06/06/10 at 23:11:13
Post Tools
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/06/10 at 13:07:24:
Auschwitz is an interesting reason to be an atheist. There are quite a few Jews (in the religious sense) whose faith is stronger because of the Shoah.

I am fully aware that it is an emotional thing. It seems that Epicurus was the first to bring up evil as an argument against a divine being.

Mortal Games wrote on 06/06/10 at 21:22:25:
It is important to study medieval times because it was the time where church was most powerful and the darker age of all times were scientist Galilei one of the great genius was killed just because of his defense that the earth goes around the sun and is round and not flat like church said

If you want to debate on a rational basis and want to do a historical study you better get your facts right. Galilei was not killed but died in piece in 1642. Nine years (!) before he was not prosecuted by the church because he argued that the earth was round. Every educated person, including the cardinals, already knew for more than a century that the earth was a sphere. It was already common knowledge among the educated people in Columbus' time. Galilei was even hardly punished - three weeks of house arrest or something like that.
The remarkable fact is that in the Inquisition vs. Galilei process the cardinals were right and not Galilei, if we accept modern scientific principles. You see, Galilei postulated the heliocentric model of Copernicus as the absolute truth and it's on this point that the cardinals objected. They did not mind at all if this theory was investigated as a hypothesis, quite close to Popper's principles. If anyone is interested I can mention a few sources in German.

Mortal Games wrote on 06/06/10 at 21:22:25:
and by opposition study the renaissance where the man was the center and it was a beautiful time.

Alexander Borgia was also a renaissance man. The Italian renaissance was a time of dirty and shortsighted politics between 5 big and a lot of small citystates. I would not call that beautiful.
The renaissance in the low lands was the time of Reformation, which triggered more than 100 years of bloody religious wars. In between quite a few countries northern of the Alps found time to hunt witches. Again I would not call that beautiful.

Mortal Games wrote on 06/06/10 at 21:22:25:
It is important to study the theory of species by Darwin (possible the most important book writen) that is a proof in itself and is accepted by the top of the church and only radical movements dismiss but everybody with a medium level of intelligence and culture knows itīs true.

Wrong, it's a hypothesis. And according to Popper it's not even scientific, as it cannot be falsified.

Mortal Games wrote on 06/06/10 at 21:22:25:
And finally a great read: Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion and by the same author: The Greatess show on earth: The Evidence for Evolution. After this studies and this important books itīs impossible to believe in the great juju of the mountain like some people in Africa still do. This debate resumes in two things: Education/formation and information.

I will immediately admit that my information about Dawkins is seriously flawed, but I am heavily under the impression that he makes a similar mistake as Galilei: he seems to think he can prove that god does not exist.
There is no truth in science. Recognizing that every theory, every model is nothing but a hypothesis has been the key to success in physics for the last 200 years.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Mortal Games
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 587
Joined: 07/24/04
Gender: Male
Re: Religion WARNING: CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC
Reply #56 - 06/06/10 at 21:30:38
Post Tools
  

It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses.  It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Mortal Games
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 587
Joined: 07/24/04
Gender: Male
Re: Religion WARNING: CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC
Reply #55 - 06/06/10 at 21:22:25
Post Tools
For me the principal reason to be an atheist and the key to this debate is: Information. (Plato cave is a great image).
And the only way to debate is on rational and not on irrational arguments. Having said that, for example, it will be impossible for me to debate with a taliban or any kind of intolerant, arrogant, blind or brain watch who can only learn and see one side and not two sides of the problem and then be capable of forming his own opinion. 
In my view, this is a cultural problem and it is very important the education and after that what someone is capable of learn after that. This is very important, because the most important things in life are learned by ourselves after education. Itīs a process not to receive everything but to fight and to learn and few people continue this process after education. History told us that to really form an opinion, we need to study antagonist views and only than form an opinion. This debate of existence of god or not is a cultural process. Itīs not a question of words against words or documents, itīs a question of understanding and cultural evolution. For me it is important to study history of the world, the relations between kings in power and the power of church and the game of ilusions with politics still in modern times. It is important to study medieval times because it was the time where church was most powerfull and the darker age of all times were cientist Gallileu one of the great genius was killed just because of his defense that the earth goes around the sun and is round and not flat like church said and by opposition study the renascence where the man was the center and it was a beautiful time. It is important to study the theory of species by Darwin (possible the most important book writen) that is a proof in itself and is accepted by the top of the church and only radical movements dismiss but everybody with a medium level of intelligence and culture knows itīs true. And finally a great read: Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion and by the same author: The Greatess show on earth: The Evidence for Evolution. After this studies and this important books itīs impossible to believe in the great juju of the mountain like some people in Africa still do. This debate resumes in two things: Education/formation and information.
  

It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses.  It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
YaBB Moderator
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Religion WARNING: CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC
Reply #54 - 06/06/10 at 13:07:24
Post Tools
Auschwitz is an interesting reason to be an atheist. There are quite a few Jews (in the religious sense) whose faith is stronger because of the Shoah.   

For me, as a Christian, I find natural catastrophes such as the 2004 tsunami or the earthquake in Haiti much more challenging to theology than manmade horrors.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10775
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Religion WARNING: CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC
Reply #53 - 06/06/10 at 12:52:36
Post Tools
Well, Saramago with a lot of words described one of the two reasons I am an atheist. I prefer one word: Auschwitz.
It does not prove anything though. It's logically possible that and evil and God exist.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Mortal Games
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 587
Joined: 07/24/04
Gender: Male
Re: Religion WARNING: CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC
Reply #52 - 06/06/10 at 00:28:34
Post Tools
Yes, and no it depends on who is reading.  Grin
It was stronger than myself...  Wink
  

It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses.  It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
YaBB Moderator
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Religion WARNING: CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC
Reply #51 - 06/05/10 at 23:30:21
Post Tools
Yeah, I've read Saramago.  He is a Nobel Laureate, as was Bertie Russell. They're both brilliant writers, but their credentials as Nobel Laureates has little to do with the conversation, does it?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Mortal Games
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 587
Joined: 07/24/04
Gender: Male
Re: Religion WARNING: CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC
Reply #50 - 06/05/10 at 22:25:56
Post Tools
This is my contribution to this funny debate that sometimes always remember me of the "Plato cave".
I used google language tools in the following text:

                     The GOD FACTOR 
                   By JOSÉ SARAMAGO 
Somewhere in India. A row of artillery pieces into position. Tied to mouth of each one of them is a man. In the foreground of a photo British officer raises his sword and will give the order to fire. Not available 
picture of the effect of the shooting, but even the most obtuse imagination can 'see' heads and torsos scattered over the field of fire, debris bloody, viscera, limbs amputated. The men were rebels. 
Somewhere in Angola. Two Portuguese soldiers raise the arms a black that might not be dead, another soldier wielding a machete and prepares to separate his head from the body. This is the first photography. In the second, this time there is a second photo, the head already been cut off and a stick, and the soldiers laugh. The Negro was a guerrilla. 
Somewhere in Israel. While some Israeli soldiers immobilize a Palestinian, another soldier hammered him to the bones of his right hand. 
The Palestinians had thrown stones. United States of America, New York City. Two U.S. commercial aircraft,
kidnapped by terrorists linked to Islamic fundamentalism, throw themselves against the towers of the World Trade Center and lay them down. 
By the same process a third aircraft causes enormous damage to building Pentagon, headquarters of the United States war power. The dead, buried in rubble, reduced to crumbs, vaporized for thousands. 
Photographs of India, Angola and Israel shoot us with the horror of face, the victims are shown to us at the very instant of torture, agonal expectation, ignoble death. In New York everything seemed unreal at first, episode, repeated without news of another disaster movie, really striking in the degree of illusion achieved by the engineer of special effects, but clean rales, spurts of blood, crushed meat, bone grinding and shit. The horror, crouching like a filthy animal, waited we go out of amazement to leap at the throat. Horror said the first time "I'm here" when those people jumped to the empty as if they had just chosen a death that was his. 
Now the horror will appear at every moment to remove a stone, a piece of wall, a sheet of twisted aluminum, and will be a head unrecognizable, an arm, a leg, a broken abdomen, a chest flattened. But even this is repetitive and monotonous, somewhat longer 
known for images that we see that Rwanda-of-a-million-dead, that cooked the Vietnam napalm, 
those executions in stadiums full of people, and those lynchings beatings of Iraqi soldiers buried alive under 
tons of sand, those atomic bombs that leveled and pulverized Hiroshima and Nagasaki, those Nazi crematoria to spew ash, those trucks to dump corpses as if they were trash. 
Something we will always die, but I have lost count of beings human dead in the worst ways that humans were able to invent. One of the most criminal, the more absurd, what most offends the simple reason is that since the beginning of time and civilizations, has called killing in the name of God. It has been said that the religions, they all, without exception, have never served to bring together and unite the men who, by contrast, have been and continue to be concerned 
untold suffering and massacres, of monstrous violence
physical and spiritual are one of the darkest chapters of miserable history. At least out of respect for life, 
should have the courage to proclaim it in all circumstances evident and demonstrable truth, but most believers of any religion not only pretend to ignore him, as they arise, enraged and intolerant against those for whom God is nothing more than a name, nothing more than a name, the name for fear of dying, we gave him one day and that would block our real step towards humanization. In return 
paradises promised us and threatened us with hell, so fake ones like the others, blatant insults to the intelligence and a sense common for us so much effort creating. 
Nietzsche said that everything was permissible if God does not exist, and I answer that precisely because of and in God's name do you have permitted and justified everything, especially the worst, especially 
more horrible and cruel. For centuries the Inquisition was, she also today as the Taliban, a terrorist organization that is dedicated to perverse interpretation of sacred texts that should merit the 
as to who say they believe in them, a monstrous covenant between the conúbio Religion and State against freedom of conscience and against the most 
human rights: the right to say no, the right to heresy, 
right to choose something else, that the word heresy means. 
And yet, God is innocent. Innocent as something that does not exist, that not exist or never existed, innocent of having created a universe integer to beings capable of committing the greatest crimes 
soon to justify themselves by saying they are celebrations of their power and of his glory, as the dead up, these towers Twin New York, and all others who in the name of a God made killer through the will and action of men, covered and insist on covered with blood and terror the pages of history. The gods, I think, only exist in the human brain, thrive or languish in the same who invented the universe, but the "God factor" that is present in life as it actually was the lord and master. There is a god, but the "God factor" that is exhibited on the dollar bill and shows us 
posters asking for America (the U.S., not the other ...) 
divine blessing. And the "God factor" in the god of Islam is turned that shot against the World Trade Center planes the revolt against the contempt and revenge against the humiliation. 
Dir will be a god who walked to sow the wind and another god answers now with storms. It is possible, even certain. But they were not, poor blameless gods, was the "God factor", which is terrifyingly equal in all human beings wherever they are and whatever 
religion they profess, which has intoxicated the mind and open the door to more blatant intolerance, one that respects only it own belief, that after that supposedly made the beast a man came to make man a beast. 
The reader believer (of any faith ...) that has been able to bear the disgust that these words will probably inspire you, do not ask we proceed to the atheism of those who wrote them. I simply ask that 
understand, the feeling if not for the reason that if there God, there is only one God, and that in its relationship with him, the least important is the name that you were taught to give. And that distrust of the "God factor." Not lacking the human spirit enemies, but this is one of the most dogged and 
corrosive. As demonstrated and unfortunately continue to demonstrate.
 
Writer, Nobel Prize in Literature
  

It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses.  It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10775
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Religion WARNING: CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC
Reply #49 - 06/05/10 at 20:56:48
Post Tools
He He, I have been waiting for that one.  Wink
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
YaBB Moderator
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Religion WARNING: CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC
Reply #48 - 06/04/10 at 23:40:00
Post Tools
I'm rather on MNb's side on this one  The gate was almost certainly renamed during the Crusades.  I haven't done the research, but his source makes a great argument. 


Well, his source is Dutch, which of course renders anything he says highly dubious!  Cool
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10775
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Religion WARNING: CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC
Reply #47 - 06/04/10 at 21:49:55
Post Tools
BirdBrain wrote on 06/04/10 at 18:47:45:
I have heard this translation, and it is not befitting.

You certainly won't mind that I rather rely on a professional trained scholar who can read at least 3 antique languages (Latin, Greek and Hebrew) than on the link you gave. What's more, said scholar is a christian himself.

http://www.livius.org/about.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jona_Lendering
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 13 14 [15] 16 17 ... 19
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo