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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Religion WARNING: CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC (Read 111221 times)
Mortal Games
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Re: Religion WARNING: CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC
Reply #76 - 06/07/10 at 20:18:08
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Moderator's Note

I will leave Mortal Games' long copy&paste message in tact, but in the future, pls simply post a link rather than copy page after page of a document.

~SF June 7th, 2010


I copy& pasted it because it was on another language but ok, anyway I will end my participation on this topic because great explanations and discussions will lead us to lots of other texts, philosophers, thinkers, history of the world, relations between chuch and power, control of masses, role of woman etc, and that in itself is a cultural process. Just want to finish with two more quotes:

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." — Edward Gibbon

"The whole thing is so patently infantile, so foreign to reality, that to anyone with a friendly attitude to humanity it is painful to think that the great majority of mortals will never be able to rise above this view of life" — Sigmund Freud

  

It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses.  It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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Re: Religion WARNING: CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC
Reply #75 - 06/07/10 at 19:50:41
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BirdBrain wrote on 06/07/10 at 19:29:19:
To say that you can't die in a disaster because you are a Christian?  Then everyone would get on the bandwagon.  But I will tell you this - you give God a chance, and He will prove Himself to you.  I have had many times in my life where I could have died, and God saw me through it.  Some say, "Just coincidence."  But I know better. On this earth, all are destined to die.  Many Christians have died terrible deaths at the hands of those who hated them, all because they preached the Word of God.  God allowed it.  But their life was not only here on this earth - it went on past here, into the heavens.  God promises us eternal life through His Son, Jesus Christ.  


So you didn't die because god saved you. and even if you had died, that would have meant that god prepared an eternal life for you in heavens. so either way you win the argument.

BirdBrain wrote on 06/07/10 at 19:29:19:

Your life does not consist of only what you see in front of you.    

- an interesting straw man.







  
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Re: Religion WARNING: CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC
Reply #74 - 06/07/10 at 19:29:19
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To say that you can't die in a disaster because you are a Christian?  Then everyone would get on the bandwagon.  But I will tell you this - you give God a chance, and He will prove Himself to you.  I have had many times in my life where I could have died, and God saw me through it.  Some say, "Just coincidence."  But I know better.   
Your life does not consist of only what you see in front of you.  On this earth, all are destined to die.  Many Christians have died terrible deaths at the hands of those who hated them, all because they preached the Word of God.  God allowed it.  But their life was not only here on this earth - it went on past here, into the heavens.  God promises us eternal life through His Son, Jesus Christ.
  
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Re: Religion WARNING: CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC
Reply #73 - 06/07/10 at 19:24:45
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BirdBrain, I also wonder why so many disasters happen these days and why so many devout Christians die in them.
  
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Re: Religion WARNING: CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC
Reply #72 - 06/07/10 at 19:12:22
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I will leave Mortal Games' long copy&paste message in tact, but in the future, pls simply post a link rather than copy page after page of a document.

~SF June 7th, 2010
  
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Re: Religion WARNING: CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC
Reply #71 - 06/07/10 at 16:00:20
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Antillian wrote on 06/07/10 at 14:24:34:
I can to some extent understand the arguments about Auswitz and the like disproving the existence of God. But on the other hand, this premise suggests that a real God should place limits on men exercising their free will. If men are really beings with free will, does that not include the freedom to do great evil? 

At what point should a real God intervene and prevent free men from exercising their will in order to be credible? Is it to prevent any unnatual deaths? Is it to prevent 100? Is it to prevent 1,000 or is it 100,000.?


God gives us free will, but there is a price - the Bible says that we reap what we sow.  If He treated us like robots, there would be no such thing as freedom of choice.  But free will also gives us the opportunity to show that we truly love Him, by denying those things He tells us are evil, and by following Him.  In the end, when you stand before God, you must give account for what has been done.  The Bible teaches that you are judged accordingly.  The only way to be forgiven for sins is to accept the only gift God gave that is truly acceptable in His eyes, the gift of Jesus Christ, who died for the sins of the world.  If you believe on Him, you shall be forgiven your sins.  Then you can make a choice to follow Him.  If you choose not to follow Him, that is your choice, but there are consequences.  It is not wise to tempt God.  There are those that tempted Him in the Bible - they met a terrible fate, multiple times.  People wonder why so many disasters happen these days, but no one sees that God is being pushed out of the picture.
  
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Re: Religion WARNING: CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC
Reply #70 - 06/07/10 at 14:40:40
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(cont) Contrary to what is sometimes alleged, evolution is a science predictor. If you choose any species not yet studied and subject it to detailed scrutiny, any evolutionist will confidently predict that it will notice that each individual of the species that will do everything in their power, the way this particular species - plant, herbivore, carnivore , nectívora or whatever - to survive and propagate the DNA that resides in it. Not be around long enough to test this prediction, but we can say with great confidence, that if a comet hit the earth and to extinguish the mammals, a new fauna will rise to take his place, as well as mammals have replaced dinosaurs 65 million years. And the range of roles played by new cast of life's drama will be similar in their general features, even if not in its details, the roles of mammals and the dinosaurs before them, and the reptiles similar to mammals that existed before the dinosaurs. Predictably, the same rules are being followed by millions of species around the globe and hundreds of millions of years. This type of general observation requires an entirely different explanatory principle of the anthropic principle that explains natural events such as the origin of life or the origin of the universe, by luck. This entirely different principle is natural selection. 

We explain our existence by a combination of the anthropic principle and the principle of Darwin's natural selection. This combination provides a complete and deeply satisfying explanation for everything we see and know. Not only is the god hypothesis unnecessary. She is spectacularly little parsimonious. Not only do not need a God to explain the universe and life. God stands out in the universe as the most glaring of the superfluous that deviate all that surrounds it. Of course we can not prove that God does not exist, nor can we prove that Thor, fairies, elves or the Flying Spaghetti Monster does not exist. But just as we do with those other fantasies whose existence we can not deny, we can affirm that God is very, very unlikely. 
  

It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses.  It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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Re: Religion WARNING: CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC
Reply #69 - 06/07/10 at 14:39:46
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(cont) Things intelligent, creative, complex, statistically improbable universe to arrive late, as products of evolution or some other process of gradual escalation from simple origins. They arrive late to the universe, therefore, can not be responsible for having it designed. 

Another of the efforts of St. Thomas Aquinas, the argument of the gradient, deserves to be explained because it sums up the weakness characteristic of theological reasoning. Observed degrees of goodness or temperature, say, and the measure, said St. Thomas Aquinas, with reference to a maximum: 

"The maximum in any genus is the cause of everything in that genre, like the fire, which is the maximum heat, is the cause of all things hot. Therefore, there must be something that is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness and all other perfections, and call it God. " 

This is an argument? We could equally well say that people vary with respect to their degree of stench, but we can only take the assessment with reference to a perfect maximum of conceivable stench. Therefore, there must be an odd smelly preeminently, to which we will call God. Or substitute any dimension of comparison you want it and derive a conclusion also unwise. That's theology. 

The only traditional arguments for the existence of God that is widely used today is the teleological argument, sometimes called the argument from design, though - as its name requires the question about its validity - it would be better to be named " argument for design. It is the familiar argument of the watchmaker, who is surely one of the most superficially plausible bad arguments ever discovered - and it is rediscovered by just about everyone else, even if they are taught that their brilliant logical fallacy and the alternative proposed by Darwin. 

In the familiar world of human artifacts, complicated things that appear to have been designed are designed. To naïve observers, it seems logical consequence of this that also complicated things in the natural world that appear to have been designed - things like eyes and hearts - were so. It is not just an argument by analogy. There is, also, a semblance of statistical reasoning - fallacious, but carrying an illusion of plausibility. If you randomly shuffled fragments of an eye, a leg or a heart a million times, would be lucky to even get a combination that would be able to see, walk or pump. This demonstrates that objects like these could not have been assembled by chance. And, of course, no sensible scientist ever said they were. Unfortunately, the scientific education of most British and American students omits any mention of Darwin, and therefore the only alternative to chance that most people can imagine is design. 

Even before Darwin's time, the illogicality was obvious: how could it have been a good idea to explain the existence of improbable things, positing a creator who would have been even more improbable? The entire argument is logically invalid, as David Hume realized before Darwin was born. What Hume did not know was the supremely elegant alternatively both randomly about the plan that would present in Darwin. Natural selection is so stunningly powerful and convenient not only explains the whole life, it raises our level of awareness and reinforces our confidence in the future ability of science to explain everything else. 

Natural selection is not simply an alternative to chance. It is the only ultimate alternative ever suggested. The design is only in the short term, a functional explanation for organized complexity. It is not a final explanation, because those responsible for the design need to be explained. If, as I once speculated in jest Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel, life on this planet had been sown by intentionally sent a load of bacteria in the cone of a rocket, still need an explanation for the intelligent extraterrestrials who have sent the rocket. Ultimately, they must have evolved gradually from simpler origins. Only the evolution, or some kind of "crane" gradualist (to use the term fit of Daniel Dennett), is able to terminate the return. Natural selection is a process that will antiacaso gradually increasing complexity, one tiny step at a time. The final product of this process is irreversible advance of an eye, a heart or brain - an object whose improbable complexity is utterly incomprehensible until you see the gradual ramp leading to it. 

Whether right or not my conjecture that evolution is the only explanation of life in the universe, there is no doubt that she is the explanation of life on this planet. Evolution is a fact, and is one of the most incontestable facts known to science. But she had to start somehow. Natural selection can not operate your miracles until there are certain minimum conditions, of which the most important is an accurate replica of creation - the DNA or something that works like DNA. 

The origin of life on this planet - which means the source of the first molecule to autorreplicar - is difficult to study because (probably) only happened once, 4 billion years ago and under very different conditions from those with which we are familiar. You may never know how it happened. Unlike the ordinary evolutionary events that followed, she must have been a genuinely very improbable event, to unpredictable: too improbable, perhaps, for chemists to reproduce it in the lab or even imagine a plausible theory to explain what happened. This weirdly paradoxical conclusion - that a chemical account of the origin of life, to be plausible, needs to be implausible - it would be logical if it were fact that life is extremely rare in the universe. And, in fact, never found any evidence of extraterrestrial life, even by radio - a circumstance which prompted the inquiry by Enrico Fermi, "Where is everyone?" 

Suppose that the origin of life on the planet has occurred thanks to a wildly improbable stroke of luck, so improbable that only happens one in a billion planets. The National Science Foundation would react with laughter to any chemist who propose research that had just one in a hundred chance of succeeding - let alone one in a billion. However, in view of the fact that there are at least a billion billion planets in the universe, even a probability so absurdly small as this will result in life in a billion planets. And - here you enter the famous anthropic principle - the Earth must be one of them, because we're here. 

If you go away on a spaceship to find the only planet in the galaxy that has life, the chances that were not found so great that in practice, the task would be indistinguishable from impossible. But if he were still alive (as you obviously would be, if he were about to enter a space ship), would not need to bother going out looking for the only planet because, by definition, already have been in it. The anthropic principle really is rather elegant. By the way, do not really think that the origin of life was so unlikely. I think the galaxy is dotted with many islands of life, even though these islands are too far apart for any one party has the hope to meet with any other. What I want to demonstrate is that, given the number of planets in the universe, the origin of life could theoretically be a lucky break as big as a blindfolded golfer hit a hole in one fell swoop. The beauty of the anthropic principle is the fact that even in the face of staggering odds so high against it, it still gives us a perfectly satisfactory explanation of the presence of life on our planet. 

The anthropic principle is usually applied not to planets but to universes. Some physicists have suggested that the laws and constants of physics are too good-as if the universe was pre-disposed to favor our eventual evolution. It is as if, say, half a dozen dials representing the major constants of physics. Each of them could be tuned to any of a wide range of values. Almost any manipulation of the dials would yield a universe in which life would be impossible. Some universes would disappear in the first pico-second (picosecond). Others would not contain elements heavier than hydrogen and helium. In still others, the matter would never condense to form stars (and stars are needed to form the chemical elements, hence life). We can estimate the very low probability that all six dials are properly tuned in by chance and then conclude that some displays of divine handler must have come into play. But as we have seen, this explanation is not smart because it leaves unanswered the biggest question of all. The handler itself divine the dials would have been at least as improbable as his manipulation of the dials. 

Again, the anthropic principle delivers its devastatingly satisfactory solution. Physicists already have reason to suspect that our universe - everything we see - is only one universe among perhaps billions. Some theorists postulate a multiverse of foam in which the universe as we know it would just be a bubble. Each bubble would have its own laws and constants. Our known laws of physics are regional internal regulations. Of all the universes existing in the foam, only a minority would have the necessary conditions to generate life. And, with anthropic hindsight, obviously we need to be sitting in a member of that minority, because, after all, we're here, do we? As the physicists say, is not by chance that we see stars in our sky, for a universe without stars would be deprived of the chemical elements necessary for life. There may be universes whose skies have no stars, but they would not have people that would come to realize that absence. Likewise, it is no accident that we see a richer diversity of living species: for an evolutionary process that can yield a species capable of seeing things and reflect on them can only generate many other species at the same time. This species needs to be reflective surrounded by an ecosystem, and needs to be surrounded by stars. 

The anthropic principle entitles us to postulate a massive dose of luck in explaining the existence of life on our planet. But there are limits. We are entitled to a windfall for the origin of evolution, and perhaps a few other unique events like the origin of the eukaryotic cell and the origin of consciousness. But it ends with our right to sort on a large scale. Emphatically, we can not invoke major strokes of luck to explain the illusion of design that shines in each of the billion species of living creatures that ever lived on Earth. The evolution of life is a general and continuous, which essentially produces the same result in all species, however different are the details. 

  

It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses.  It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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Re: Religion WARNING: CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC
Reply #68 - 06/07/10 at 14:38:19
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Why is it almost certain that God does not exist - Richard Dawkins

America, founded in the midst of secularism as a beacon of enlightenment of the 18th century, is becoming a victim of religious politics - a condition that would have shocked its founders. The upward trend politics today assigns more value to embryonic cells that elderly people. She worries obsessively with gay marriage, to the detriment of genuinely important issues that really make a difference to the world. Conquest crucial electoral support from a religious constituency whose grip on reality is so tenuous that its members expect to be "loaded into ecstasy" to heaven, leaving their clothes as empty as their minds. 

Its more radical exponents come to yearn for a world war, who identify as armagedon to be the harbinger of Christ's return to Earth. In his short new book "Letter to a Christian Nation" (Letter to a Christian Nation), Sam Harris, as usual, hits the target in full: 

"It is no exaggeration therefore to say that if the city of New York were suddenly replaced by a fireball, a significant percentage of the American population would see a positive aspect in the subsequent atomic cloud, since this would suggest that these people would be by the best possible thing happen: the return of Christ. Imagine the consequences if a significant portion of the U.S. government actually believed that the world is about to end and that his end will be glorious. The fact that nearly half the American population apparently believes this, purely on the basis of religious dogma, should be seen as moral and intellectual emergency. " 

My scientific colleagues have additional reasons to declare emergency rule. Ignorant and absolutist attacks on stem cell research represents only the tip of an iceberg. What we have here is nothing less than a global assault on rationality and the Enlightenment values that inspired the founding of this first and greatest of secular republics. The teaching of science - hence the whole future of science in this country - is under threat. Temporarily defeated in a Pennsylvania court, the "appalling inanity" (in the immortal words of Judge John Jones) intelligent design continually resurfaces in local forest fires [allusion to the judge in 2005 that banned a school from teaching intelligent design is unconstitutional because it] . 

Delete these fires is a responsibility that is time consuming, but important, and scientists are finally being dragged from their complacency. For years they worked quietly with their science, lamentably underestimating the creationists who, being neither competent or interested in science, have dealt with the serious political work to subvert local boards of education. Scientists, and intellectuals generally, are now awakening to the threat posed by Taliban American. 

The scientists are divided between two lines of thought on the best tactic with which to counter the threat. The school of "conciliation" of Neville Chamberlain focuses on the battle for evolution. Consequently, its members identify fundamentalism as the enemy and go to great lengths to reconcile religion with "moderate" or "sensible" (a task that is not difficult, inasmuch as bishops and theologians reject the fundamentalists as much as they do scientists). 

Already scientists School Winston Churchill they see the fight for evolution as only one battle in a larger war: a war that is coming between supernaturalism and rationality. For them, bishops and theologians fall into the supernatural realm, side by side with the creationists, and you should not try to reconcile with them. 

A recent article by Cornelia Dean in The New York Times quotes the astronomer Owen Gingerich as saying that, by simultaneously advocating evolution and atheism, "dr. Dawkins probably alone attracts more converts to intelligent design than any of the leading intelligent design theorists. " It is not the first nor the second or even third time that this argument appears exceedingly devoid of common sense (and more than a replica he quoted, with great convenience, Uncle Remus, "Please, Brother Fox, not throw me in that horrible thorny thicket "). 

The followers of Chamberalain often cite the "NOMA" ("nonoverlapping magisteria"), the late Stephen Jay Gould. Gould claimed that science and true religion never come into conflict because they exist in completely separate dimensions of discourse: 

"To speak on behalf of all my colleagues and the tenth-millionth time (from chat sessions handled by university scholars): science simply can not (by its legitimate methods) adjudicate the issue of possible superintendence of God over Nature. We neither affirm nor deny it, just as scientists can not comment on it. " 

That sounds terrible, until you stop to think about the idea for a moment. Then you realize that the presence of a creative deity in the universe is clearly a scientific hypothesis. In fact, it would be hard to imagine a more momentous hypothesis in all of science. A universe with a god would be a totally different kind of universe from a universe without God, and the difference would be scientific. God could end up with doubt in his favor at any time, staging a spectacular demonstration of their strength, able to meet the exacting standards of science. Even the infamous Templeton Foundation recognized that God is a scientific hypothesis. Despite well-funded efforts, although there has been no evidence proving the existence of God. 

To see the disingenuous hypocrisy of religious people who claim to be devotees of NOMA, imagine that forensic archeologists, due to some unlikely set of circumstances, discovered DNA evidence demonstrating that Jesus was born of a virgin mother and had no father. If NOMA enthusiasts were sincere, they should immediately dismiss the DNA found by archaeologists: "It's irrelevant. The scientific evidence are worthless to theological questions. It's the wrong magisterium. " 

Does anyone seriously think that they would say anything remotely like this? You can bet what you want not just fundamentalists, but also all the bishops and all teachers of theology in the country boast the archaeological evidence to the skies. 

Either Jesus had a father, or had not. The question is scientific, and scientific evidence would be used to solve it, if there was. The same applies to any miracle - and the deliberate and intentional creation of the universe could only have been the mother and the father of all miracles. Either it happened or not happened. It is a fact, one way or another, and in our state of uncertainty, we can assign it a probability - an estimate that may change as they are getting more information. The best estimate that mankind can do about the probability of divine creation is drastically reduced in 1859 when it was published "The Origin of Species," and has been declining steadily in subsequent decades, as the trend has been consolidating, plausible theory in the 19th century to established fact today. 

The Chamberlain tactic of snuggling up with religion "sensible" in order to present a united front against the creationists (the proponents of intelligent design) is great if your main concern is the battle for evolution. This is a valid central concern, and I salute those who defend it, such as Eugenie Scott in Evolution versus Creationism "(evolution vs. creationism). But if you lean over the stupendous scientific question of whether or not the universe was created by a supernatural intelligence, the lines follow a completely different route. On this larger issue, fundamentalists are united with religion "moderate" in one of the fields, and I see myself on others. 

Of course, all this presupposes that the God we're talking about is a personal intelligence such as Jehovah, Allah, Baal, Wotan, Zeus or Krishna. If, on "God," you refer to love, nature, goodness, the universe, the laws of physics, the spirit of humanity or Planck's constant, none of the above applies. An American student asked his teacher if he had formed an opinion about me. "Of course," replied the teacher. "He says that positive science is incompatible with religion, but speaks in a tone of ecstasy on the nature and the universe. To me, that is - religion. " Well, if that's what you choose to indicate when talking about religion, fine, that makes me a religious man. But if your God is a being who designs universes, listens to prayers, performs miracles, reads your thoughts, cares about their well being and makes you rebuild after death, it is unlikely that you will be satisfied. As I said the respected American physicist Steven Weinberg: "If you want to say that 'God is energy,' then you can find God in a lump of coal." But do not expect entire congregations Lotem his church. 

When Einstein said "God had a choice in creating the universe?", He meant: "Could the universe have begun more than one way?". "God does not play dice 'was Einstein's poetic way found to cast doubt on the theory of indeterminacy of Heisenberg. Einstein became angry, in a case that became famous when theists misunderstood what he said, considering that he spoke of a personal God. But what does he expect? The headquarters of interpreting it wrongly should have been obvious to him. Physicists usually reveal supposedly religious be so only in the Einsteinian sense: they are atheists endowed with poetic disposition. I also am. But, given the very wide longing for that big mistake of interpretation, deliberately confuse Einsteinian pantheism with supernatural religion is an act of intellectual high treason. 

Accepting, then, that the hypothesis of the existence of God is a valid scientific hypothesis whose truth or falsehood is hidden in the absence of evidence, what should be our best estimate of the probability that God exists, given the evidence available today? Quite low, in my opinion, and here's why. 

For starters, many of the traditional arguments for the existence of God, Saint Thomas Aquinas on, are easy to demolish. Several of them, as the argument of first cause, work by creating an infinite regress, to be completed if God calls. But we never told why God is magically able to terminate the return without giving any explanation of himself. Of course we do need some kind of explanation of the origin of things. Physicists and cosmologists are hard at work on this problem. But whatever the answer - a random quantum fluctuation, or uniqueness of a Hawking / Penrose, that is what gave her name - it is simple. Complex, statistically improbable things, by definition, do not happen simply - they require an explanation. They are powerless to end returns, in a way that simple things are not. The first question may not have been an intelligence - let alone an intelligence that answers prayers and is happy to be worshiped. (cont)
  

It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses.  It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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Re: Religion WARNING: CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC
Reply #67 - 06/07/10 at 14:24:34
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I can to some extent understand the arguments about Auswitz and the like disproving the existence of God. But on the other hand, this premise suggests that a real God should place limits on men exercising their free will. If men are really beings with free will, does that not include the freedom to do great evil? 

At what point should a real God intervene and prevent free men from exercising their will in order to be credible? Is it to prevent any unnatual deaths? Is it to prevent 100? Is it to prevent 1,000 or is it 100,000.?
  

"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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Re: Religion WARNING: CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC
Reply #66 - 06/07/10 at 13:04:51
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If you want to debate on a rational basis and want to do a historical study you better get your facts right. Galilei was not killed but died in piece in 1642. Nine years (!) before he was not prosecuted by the church because he argued that the earth was round. Every educated person, including the cardinals, already knew for more than a century that the earth was a sphere. It was already common knowledge among the educated people in Columbus' time. Galilei was even hardly punished - three weeks of house arrest or something like that.
The remarkable fact is that in the Inquisition vs. Galilei process the cardinals were right and not Galilei, if we accept modern scientific principles. You see, Galilei postulated the heliocentric model of Copernicus as the absolute truth and it's on this point that the cardinals objected. They did not mind at all if this theory was investigated as a hypothesis, quite close to Popper's principles. If anyone is interested I can mention a few sources in German.


That is interesting, because I read the same argument by Dom Melchor Sanches de Toca sub-secretary of pontifice council for culture about this controversy when he was giving a conference and several seminarists and catholic researchers were thinking that Galileu was killed. Indeed, he died blind in 1642.
I made a confusion with Giordano Bruno the philosopher. He was burned by authorities in 1600.

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Alexander Borgia was also a renaissance man. The Italian renaissance was a time of dirty and shortsighted politics between 5 big and a lot of small citystates. I would not call that beautiful.
The renaissance in the low lands was the time of Reformation, which triggered more than 100 years of bloody religious wars. In between quite a few countries northern of the Alps found time to hunt witches. Again I would not call that beautiful.
 

Of course I am not refering to that and would not call that the great example of renaissance as an age or period. It´s more about Gallileu , and a period of arts: great human achievments in painting, architecture and sculpture. Borgia was also a renaissance man but not the center of renaissance movement.

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Wrong, it's a hypothesis. And according to Popper it's not even scientific, as it cannot be falsified.


Do not agree with that. A good read is Dawkins "The greatest show on earth" - The Evidence of evolution. 
The proofs are here since Darwin! 
Another point is that it is someone who claims that god exist that needs to show proofs and not the contrary, because if I claim that the great juju of the mountain exist like some people in Africa still believe today, or that duendes exist, I need to show a proof and not the contrary. Dawkins shows the theory of species in a clearer manner and every possibility of evolution are linked to one another and more proofs are recollected in present time as part of this puzzle of why we are here. If this was wrong, at any time will appear a broken link and it is not the case.

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Science is a way of knowing.  It is founded on faith No. It's founded on facts, not faith.

there is absolutely no words that can change the way I believe You see, that's the crucial difference; Science forces you to change what you believe in the light of new facts.  You on the other hand, just cherry pick the bits you like about Christianity/religion, then ignore all the rest.


Agree! 

Quote:
There is no rational proof of God.  There also is no rational proof that God does not exist, despite Markovich's claim.


How can we show a proof that the great juju of the mountain in Africa does not exist or duendes do not exist? Of course not, but we can show proofs by theory of species that show how we came here and that in itself will show that god does not exist.

Auswitz is of course a good argument despite the fact that radicals can say that their god is like that a punisher but I saw a tv program about Auswitz museum and a victim asked a priest: Where is God? and the priest kept in silence and was not able to reply! 
For me another argument was dinossaurs.
  

It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses.  It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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Re: Religion WARNING: CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC
Reply #65 - 06/07/10 at 12:41:29
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MNb wrote on 06/04/10 at 21:49:55:
BirdBrain wrote on 06/04/10 at 18:47:45:
I have heard this translation, and it is not befitting.

You certainly won't mind that I rather rely on a professional trained scholar who can read at least 3 antique languages (Latin, Greek and Hebrew) than on the link you gave. What's more, said scholar is a christian himself.

http://www.livius.org/about.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jona_Lendering


You can rely on him all you want.  Jesus took all the "professional" Pharisees on too.  They were professionally trained, but their hearts were not right with God.   

I have heard the "rope" translation for a long time - I was under a man who learned at Harvard Divinity school - he taught a Dimensions class at the Hill School, Dr. Harvard (funny that his last name was also the name of the school where he went!).  He taught that one of the translations of the word was "rope", but it is funny that the translators of the King James Version, who were professionals too, chose camel for the translation.  Guess why?  They were smart enough to know that a camel is a camel.   

You took the word rope, and you still don't believe in God.  It didn't do much good.  But the camel makes much more sense.  If you want to make it into the kingdom of heaven, you will never make it by clinging to your worldly goods.
  
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Re: Religion WARNING: CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC
Reply #64 - 06/07/10 at 12:35:33
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/06/10 at 13:07:24:
Auschwitz is an interesting reason to be an atheist. There are quite a few Jews (in the religious sense) whose faith is stronger because of the Shoah.  

For me, as a Christian, I find natural catastrophes such as the 2004 tsunami or the earthquake in Haiti much more challenging to theology than manmade horrors.


If you know what the Bible says, you wouldn't find it challenging at all.  God is pronouncing judgment upon this world, as he has done even since the first parts of the world.  Haven't you read how God destroyed all mankind, save for Noah, with a massive flood?  And in the Book of Revelation, we read that God is going to strike the world with various plagues.  Even in Exodus, God allows many plagues to come upon the Egyptians.

To say a hurricane, earthquake, or storm is evidence that God is not in control is not accurate.  As a matter of fact, God is definitely in control, and He does and will exact judgment on this world - it is full of sin.  The Bible says He rained brimstone and fire upon Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities for their gross sins.
  
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Re: Religion WARNING: CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC
Reply #63 - 06/07/10 at 10:13:00
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/07/10 at 04:30:24:
Science is a way of knowing.  It is founded on faith.  All knowledge is merely strongly held belief. We could deny everything and be complete nihilists, but Descartes tried to work his way out of that rabbit hole.

I have to object as well. Accepting a hyptohesis is not the same as having faith. That has everything to do with Descartes indeed: he failed and got stuck. So did Hume.
Science uses both ways - rational and empirical - to gather knowledge. The trick is that the outcomes have to correspond. There is nothing like that in religion and that's why it has been seperated from science since quite a long time.

Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/07/10 at 04:30:24:
There is no rational proof of God.  There also is no rational proof that God does not exist, despite Markovich's claim.

Again, we should know that since Kierkegaard. But it is even simpler. Since Descartes has been criticised it's obvious that rationality on its own can't prove anything. Concerning the double scientific method, metaphysics cannot be subjected to experiments by definition.
It's a good training of the brain to point out where the various "proofs" fall flat. If the logic is flawless, which is quite often not the case, it's simply a matter of questioning the basic assumptions, called axioma's in maths. What the better "proofs" do is hiding those assumptions with cleverly chosen words.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Religion WARNING: CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC
Reply #62 - 06/07/10 at 09:57:55
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/07/10 at 04:30:24:

Science is a way of knowing.  It is founded on faith.  All knowledge is merely strongly held belief.

Huh? Science is effective recipes of domesticating nature.
Aerodynamics is right in that it builds planes to fly. It's not a matter of belief.

The concept of God on the other hand is useless for domesticating nature.
However, it's very good at domesticating men. Hence its long-lasting success.
  
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