the big problem after 1.Nf3 is ... c5, at first it looks like white has a lot of space advantage and easy play, but if the black player knows what to do, it is hard for white to complicate the position and force matters, currently I changed to 1.d4 2.c4 from 1.Nf3 with catalan repertoire, but right now I am also contemplating of playing 1.d4 2.Nf3, giving black the option to play the Queen's indian, but also having the option to play a better line against a delaid benoni for example (instead of the fianchetto benoni), and at the same time denying black the option to play albin, budapest, czech benoni and volga/benko, time will tell what is the ultimate move order!

edit: Now I looked a bit into 1.d4 Nf6 Nf3, there is also c5 stuff and the blumenfeld ... I am thinking of playing creatively: 1.d4 followed by 2.g3! against slav setups you can play double fianchetto with b3 c4

@Eclecitoco: Interesting approach, I like many of the lines you chose. Which Cox book did you use?

Eclectico wrote on 08/13/10 at 04:36:47:


PM me your list. I might be able take one or two off your hands...

I played 1.d4 2.Nf3 3.c4 for a few years.  One of the main points of this move order is that you can usually avoid mainline Benoni's and still get an edge as white.  I believe that for a player starting out in the queen's pawn games, the Benoni/Benko are the hardest systems to face.  The typical c4/d5/e4 pawn center can become unstable quickly.  

Gary Lane's book "ideas behind the modern chess openings:  white" has good coverage of the anti benoni systems, which acutally score better for white than main lines with c4:

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 c5 3. d5 e6 4. Nc3  
1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 c5 3. d5 b5 4. Bg5 

However, if you really want to go straight to heavy duty stuff, Grivas' book "beating the fianchetto defenses" is an excellent work on facing the benoni/benko/modern/KID all with with a d4/c4/Nf3 approach.

For someone starting out with d4 systems, it makes sense to initially play simpler lines against the less common defenses and focus your study energy on the QG, Slav, and KID.  Here is the path I followed for building up my d4/Nf3 repertoire:

First year:
Classical QGD - Bg5 (Palliser)
Slow Slav - e3 (Palliser)
Petrosian KID - Bg5 (Palliser)
Classical QID - e3 (Palliser)
Grunfeld - Bg5 (Grivas/Palliser)
Modern - e4 (Grivas/Palliser)
Chigorin - Bf4 (Lane)
Dutch - g3 (Lane)
anti-benoni - Nc3 (Lane)
anti-benko - Bg5 (Lane)

2nd year i beefed up my benoni and slav lines:
Modern Benoni (Grivas/Cox)
Benoni Sidelines (Grivas/Cox)
Benko Declined (Grivas)
Mainline Slav (Cox)
Mainline Semislav (Cox)

3rd year i began exploring the more complicated approaches vs. KID and QID:
Petrosian QID (Gurevich)
Krasenkow KID (Grivas/Markos)


P.S.  I no longer play these openings and would be happy to part with my collection of a half dozen books on d4/Nf3/c4 openings.  I suppose i could put the collection on ebay.

spacepawn wrote on 08/12/10 at 17:10:47:

Yes, because of 1.Nf3 c5. That's probably more work than learning something against the QGA.

Most Reti repertoire books tend to avoid the main line slav, semislav and qgd.  This is done primarilly because their target audience are the sort of players who want unusual positions.  The Khalifman books are aimed an entirely different sort of player... one who wants strategically rich positions and doesnt fear the workload of mainlines, but doesn't want to allow black his best d4 defenses (specifically the NID and Grunfeld).

Your best bet for coverage of 1.Nf3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 (e6, c6) 3.c4  is going to be a book on the queen's gambit.  Palliser's "play 1.d4" and Avruk's "1.d4 Grandmaster Repertoire vol 1" both offer mainline repertoires that start with 1.d4, 2.c4, 3.Nf3, which would work fine with a 1.Nf3 move order.  Both these repertoires are relatively quiet, but strategically rich.  

If you don't intend to play 3.c4, you can chose from dozens of london, colle, or tore books on the market.  However, it doesn't seem to make much sense to me to play a "sytem" opening starting with 1.Nf3, which gives black more choice of defensive systems than 1.d4.

If you want a strategically rich repertoire with moderate effort (less books to buy), i highly recommend the move order 1.d4 2.Nf3 3.c4, which eliminates some of black's more chaotic stuff (budapest, albin, etc) and leaves the option open of playing 3.g3/Bf4 vs. defenses like the Chigorin and Grunfeld.

Is there a repertoire book available for d4 but using a 1.Nf3 move order? ...Other than the Khalifman series on Kramniks repertoire, as Im not willing to invest so much... 

thanks.