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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C57: Is Traxler Refuted ? (Read 174988 times)
Conquistador
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #22 - 10/05/10 at 22:27:12
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I do not believe there is much to be feared from 5.d4.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.d4 d5 and now:

A. 6.dxc5 dxc4 7.Qxd8+ Nxd8 gives easy equality

B: 6.Bxd5 Nxd4 is very complex.

B1: 7.Bxf7+ Ke7 8.Bc4 b5 9.Bd3 h6 (9...Rf8 is an interesting try.  10.Be3 h6 11.Nf3 Bg4 12.Nbd2 Qd6 with compensation i.e. 13.h3 Nxf3+ 14.gxf3 Be6 15.Qe2 a6) 10.Nf3 (10.c3? hxg5 11.cxd4 Qxd4 when white is having serious development problems.  Black has a significant advantage here) 10...Bg4 11.Nbd2 Qd6 12.0-0 Rhf8 13.Nxd4 Bxd4 14.Be2 Bd7 15.Nf3 Bc5 16.Qxd6+ cxd6! and black has great compensation.

B2: 7.Nxf7?! Qe7 8.Nxh8 Bg4 and white has four alternatives:

9.Qd2 Nxd5 10.exd5 (10.c3 Nf6 11.cxd4 Bb4 12.Nc3 Nxe4 13.Qc2 Nxc3 and white is under heavy attack) 10...Bf5 11.0-0 Nxc2 12.g4 Qh4 13.Qg5 Qxg4+ 14.Qxg4 Bxg4 15.Be3 Bxe3 16.fxe3 Nxa1 17.Na3 Ke7 18.Rf7+ Kd6 19.Rxg7 Be2 20.Nf7+ Kxd5 21.Rxh7 and black is better.

9.Bf7+? Kf8 10.f3 Nxe4 11.fxg4 Qh4+ 12.g3 Nxg3 13.Bg5 Qxg5 14.hxg3 Qe3+ 15.Kf1 Nf5 and black wins.

9.f3? Nxd5 10.fxg4 Nb4 11.Na3 Qh4+ 12.g3 Qh3 13.c3 Qg2 14.cxd4 Qxh1+ 15.Kd2 Qxe4 and white will not survive.

9.Qd3 Nxd5 10.c3 Nb4 11.cxb4 Bxb4+ 12.Nc3 (12.Bd2 0-0-0 and black has a crushing attack) 12...Qd7 13.Kf1 Bxc3 14.f3 (14.bxc3 Be2+) 14...Ba5 15.fxg4 0-0-0 and black has great pressure.

C: 6.dxe5 Nxe5 7.Bb3 Qe7 8.Bxd5 Bg4 9.f3 0-0-0 and black has the advantage with an attack to boot.

D. 6.exd5 Nxd4 =/+ with material even, Black's development gives him an advantage.

« Last Edit: 10/06/10 at 12:19:53 by Conquistador »  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #21 - 10/05/10 at 22:13:51
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Gambiteer wrote on 09/12/10 at 10:31:24:
TonyRo wrote on 09/11/10 at 01:01:40:
What about the Bxf7+ and Bb3 lines with d3? Grin


Indeed.  The Bxf7 line with the Bb3 retreat is one big buzzkill.  Fortunately, in the world I inhabit, Nxf7 remains the most popular response by a country mile. 


Not all is lost with 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3.

In my research, I have found that the move order is critical for the outlook of this entire variation.  This helps trim the branches of analysis.

I have analysed four possible moves that have any real significance.

A: 6...Qf8?

This was one of my attempts to rehabilitate the main line.  It is dubious though and more of a surprise than a good move.

7.0-0! (7.d3 Bxf2+) 7…d6 8.Nc3 Bg4 9.Nd5+ Kd8 10.Nxf6 Bxd1 11.Ne6+ Kc8 12.Nxf6 gxf6 13.Rxd1 Rxf8 14.c3 and black is struggling for a draw in the endgame.

B: 6...Rf8?

I am going to be bold and call this move an outright error.  White has quite a few lines where they can hold the advantage and in some cases leave black in shambles.  This is the old main line and should be discarded.


B1: 7.0-0 d6 (7…h6 8.Nf3 d6 9.d3 Bg4 10.Be3 Nh5 11.Nbd2 and white has a significant advantage) and two more sub variations arise.

 

B1A: 8.d3 Bg4 9.Nf3 (9.Qe1 h6 10.h3 hxg5 11.hxg4 Qe8 12.Bxg5 [12.Qd1 Qg6] 12…Qg6 13.Be3 [13.Qd2 Rh8] 13…Nxg4 14.Bxc5 Qh5 and black is winning) 9…Nd4 10.Nbd2 Qe8 (10…Nh5 11.c3 Nxf3+ 12.Nxf3 Bxf3 13.gxf3 Nf4 14.d4 Bb6 15.Kh1! with 16.Rg1 to follow up and white is winning) 11.h3 (11.Re1 Qg6!; 11.Kh1 Qh5 12.c3 Nxf3 13.gxf3 Bh3 14.Rg1 Kd8 15.Rxg7 [15.Nc4 Ne8) 15…Ne8 16.Rg8 Rxg8 17.Bxg8 Qh4 18.d4 exd4 19.Qg1 Nf6 20.Qg7 dxc3 21.Nb3 cxb2 22.Bxb2 Ne8 and black has a slight advantage; 11.c3 Nxf3+ 12.Nxf3 Qh5 13.d4 (13.Be3 Nd7; 13.Bd2 Nxe4; 13.Bc2 Nxe4; 13.Bc4 Nxe4 14.dxe4 Rxf3; 13.h3 Bxf3 transposes to 11.h3) 13…Bb6 14.Qd3 (14.Re1 Nd7=) 14…Bxf3 15.gxf3 Qh3 16.Qd1 (16.dxe5 Ng4; 16.Rd1 Nh5; 16.Qe2 Nh5 17.Bg5+ Kd7 18.a4 [ 18.dxe5 Rxf3 19.e6 Ke8 20.Bh4 Nf4 21.Qb5+ c6 22.Qg5 Bd8 23.Qxg7 {23.e7 Bb6 leads to perpetual} 23…Bxh2+ 24.Kxh2 Rh3+ 25.Kg1 Ne2+ perpetual] 18…h6 19.Bd2 Rf4; 16.Bc2 Nh5 17.dxe5 (17.Bg5+ Kd7 18.Ba4+ Kc8 followed by h6!) 17…Rxf3 18.cxd6+ Kf8 19.Qe2 Rg3+ perpetual) 16…Nd7 and black has equality) 11…Qh5 12.c3 Nxf3+ 13.Nxf3 Bxf3 14.Qxf3 Qxf3 15.gxf3 Nh5 16.Kg2 Nf4+ 17.Bxf4 Rxf4 18.Rad1 Raf8 19.d4 exd4 20.cxd4 Bb6 21.Rd3 Kf6 22.Re1 Re8 23.Kg3 g5 and white cannot make progress in the endgame.

 

B1B: 8.Nc3! Qe8 (8…h6 9.Nh7!! Nxh7 10.Nd5+ Ke8 11.Qh5+ Rf7 12.Nb6!) 9.Nd5+ (9.d3 Qg6 10.Nd5+ Kd8 11.Nxf6 Rxf6 12.Nf3 Bg4 13.Bg5 Nd4 14.Nxe5 Qxg5 15.Ng4 Rg6 16.h3 Nxb3 17.axb3 h5 18.d4 hxg4 19.dxc5 gxh3 20.g3 Qxc5 21.Kh2 Rh6 and black has a slight advantage) 9…Kd8 10.Nxf6 gxf6 11.Nf3 Qg6 12.d3 and white is winning.

 

B2: 7.d3

 

B2A: 7…h6 8.Nf3 d6 9.h3 (9.Be3 Bg4 10.Bxc5 dxc5 11.Nbd2 Nd4 12.h3 Bh5 13.0-0 Nxf3+ 14.Nxf3 Qc8 15.Kh2 g5 16.Qe2 g4 17.hxg4 Nxg4+ 18.Kg1 Qe8=) 9…Qe8 10.Nc3 Nd4 11.Nxd4 Bxd4 12.0-0 Qg6 13.Kh2 Bd7 14.Be3 Bxe3 15.fxe3 Rae8 16.Qd2 and white has a significant advantage.

 

B2B: 7…d6 8.Be3 (8.0-0 transposes to B1A) 8…Qe8 (8…Bg4? 9.Qd2!; 8…Bxe3 9.fxe3 Qe8 10.Nc3 Qg6 11.Nf3 Bg4 12.Qe2 and white has a fantastic position with a pawn more) 9.Bxc5 dxc5 10.0-0 Qg6 11.Nf3 Bg4 12.Nbd2 and white is simply a pawn up.

 

B3A: 7.Nc3 Bxf2+ (7.Nc3 d6 8.0-0 transposes to B1B; 7.Nc3 h6 8.Nf3 d6 [8…Qe8 9.d3 Kd8 10.Be3] 9.h3 Qe8 10.d3 Kd8 11.Be3 Bxe3 12.fxe3 Qg6 13.Qe2 Qg3+ 14.Kd2 and white is winning; 7.Nc3 Qe8 8.d3 Qg6 9.0-0 d6 10.Nd5+ Kd8 11.Nxf6 Rxf6 12.Nf3 h6 13.Nh4 Bg4 14.Nxg6 Bxd1 15.Nxe5 Nxe5 16.Rxd1 Bxf2+ 17.Kh1 Kd7 18.h3 and white has a solid extra pawn in the endgame) 8.Kxf2 Nxe4+ 9.Kg1 Nxg5 12.d4 Nf7 11.dxe5 and white has a huge initiative.  It is doubtful black can survive.

C: 6...d6!?

This was my third attempt at trying to save black.  This was one of the best I have seen for black.  The only issue is that the move order is inaccurate which allows white to capitalize immediately.

7.Nf7! Qf8 8.Rf1 Rg8 9.Ng5-I have found no way around this line.

D: 6...Qe8!

Clearly, 6...Qe8 is the only move in this position.  This avoids the above line as 7.Nf7? would be met by 7...Rf8! with an advantage to black. 

My theory is still a bit thin on this variation as I have not had the time to go into as deeply as I would like.  My early analysis tells me that 7.d3, and 7.0-0 are equal.  I have not looked into 7.Nc3 yet, but I get the feeling it is critical.  Just some examples:

7.d3 d6 8.Nc3 (8.Be3 Qg6 9.Bf7 [9.Qf3 Nd4! and black has an advantage] 9...Qh6 10.h4 Bxe3 11.fxe3 Rf8 and black has an advantage) 8...Rf8 9.Be3 (9.0-0 Qg6 10.Nd5+ Kd8 11.Nxf6 Rxf6 12.h4 [12.Nf3 Bg4 13.Bg5 Nd4!] 12...h5 13.Be3 Bxe3 14.fxe3 Bg4 15.Qd2 Kd7 and white has a small advantage, but black has compensation) 9...Qg6 10.Nf3 Nd4 11.Bxd4 Bxd4 12.Qe2 Bxc3+ 13.bxc3 Bg4 and black has a slight advantage.

7.0-0 Rf8 (7...d6 8.Nc3 h6 9.Nf3 Bg4 10.h3 Bh5 11.d3 Rf8 12.Be3 and black is fighting for a draw in a pawn down ending) 8.Nc3 Qg6 (8...h6 9.Nf3 d6 [9...Kd8 10.d3 g5 11.Na4 Bd6 12.Be3 and white has a significant advantage] 10.d3 Bg4 11.h3 Bh5 12.Be3 Bxe3 13.fxe3 Kd7 and black is fighting for a draw down a pawn) 9.d3 d6 10.Nd5+ Kd8 11.Nxf6 Rxf6 12.h4 (12.Nf3 Bg4 13.Bg5 Nd4!) 12...h5 which transposes to 6.Bb3 Qe8 7.d3

  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #20 - 10/05/10 at 21:52:44
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All right I am your Traxler man and I am going to tell you right now that 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ is =.

Now for an improvement over one of the posts.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.exd5 Nd4 9.h3 Bg3! is much stronger than Bh4 in my research.  The critical h2 square is covered allowing black to build an initiative and equalize.

10.c3 Nf5 11.d6 (11.Qb3 Nd6 12.Be2 Nfe4 13.c4 Bh4 14.Bd1 Bd7=) 11...cxd6 12.Bf7+ Kd8 13.Qb3 (13.Na3 Bd7=) 13...Bh4=
Maartin de Zeeuw suggested instead of 10.c3, 10.a4!?
10.a4 Qc5! and now:

A: 11.Be2 Qf8 12.Ra3 (12.Bf3 Ne4 winning the material advantage; 12.Kg1 Nxd5 13.Qf1 Nf4 and black has the advantage with a strong attack to boot) 12...Nxd5+ 13.Rf3 Nxf3 14.Bxf3 Be6 and black has a significant advantage.

B: 11.d3 Qf8 12.Nd2 (12.Kg1 Ng4 wins) 12...Ng4+ 13.Nf3 Nf2 14.Bb5+ Bd7 and black has a significant advantage.
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #19 - 09/12/10 at 12:42:41
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@micawber. I don’t think that there were “major improvements”, as they just narrowed White’s ways to draw, but thank you anyway.
@MasterOm. I’ll post pgn as far as my desktop stops his calculations under Ubuntu so that I will be able to run my Chessbase under Windows. This will be a day after tomorrow, I guess.

There’s one more refutation of one of de Zeeuw’s variants (probably already known).
After 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kxf2 Nxe4+ 7.Kg1 Qh4 8.g3 Nxg3 9.hg Nd4 he claimed a draw after 10.Bf7+ Ke7 11.hg Qxg3+ 12.Kf1 d6! de Zeeuw had not seen a difference between 12…d6 and 12…d5, but in fact there’s a huge one! 13.Qh5 The point of de Zeeuw’s “refutation”. However…
13…Qf4+
A. 14.Kg1 Nf3+ 15.Kg2 Bg4 16.Nc3 (16.d4 Ne1+ 17.Rxe1 Bxh5 importantly, if Black had played 12…d5 White would have played now 19.Rxe5+ obtaining extra piece as compared to 12…d6) Ke1+ 17.Rxe1 Qf3+ 18.Kg1 Bxh5 19.Bxh5 Qg3+ 20.Kf1 Rxh8 White is not able to save his light-coloured bishop 21.Be2?? Rf8+ with soon mate, so 21.d4 Qh3+ 22.Ke2 Qxh5+ with a queen and three pawns (two of which have a lucky chance to be promoted in the foreseeable future) for a rook, a bishop and a knight Black has probably decisive advantage.
B. 14.Kg2 Bg4 15.Qh4+ g5 16.Qg3 (16.Qf2 leads to the same position) Bf3+ 17.Kf1 Bxf1 18.Qxf4 (or 18.Nc3 Rxh8 19.Bb3 Rf8 and White has to trade queens) gf 19.Na3 Rxh8 20.Bc4 Ne6 and with three pawns for the bishop it is Black who plays for a win.
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #18 - 09/12/10 at 10:31:24
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TonyRo wrote on 09/11/10 at 01:01:40:
What about the Bxf7+ and Bb3 lines with d3? Grin


Indeed.  The Bxf7 line with the Bb3 retreat is one big buzzkill.  Fortunately, in the world I inhabit, Nxf7 remains the most popular response by a country mile. 
  

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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #17 - 09/12/10 at 01:38:45
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g2-g4 wrote on 09/10/10 at 09:17:07:
@Master Om, just to save your time.

micawber wrote on 09/01/10 at 17:25:01:

Refutation 4C
5.Nf7 Bf2 6. Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.exd5 Nd4 9. d6 Qxd6 10. Nf7 and now Qe7 John Jerz's discovery who worked out the most important lines
7 white responses are examined:
4C6. 11. Kxf2 Ng4+ =John Jerz12. Ke1 Qf6 13. Rf1 Qh4+ 14. g3 Qxh2 15. d3 0.00


I looked at this variant several years ago, and found it being lost for White.
15...Qxg3+ 16.Kd2 Qe3+ 17.Kc3 Ne2+ 18.Qxe2 (after 18.Kb3 or 18.Kb4 White is mated) 18...Qxe2 and now b7-b5 is a really annoying threat to f7 knight. White will have to give up at least one piece with his king still being overexposed.
A. 19.Rh1 b5 20.Bd5 a5! -+
B. 19.Nd2 Ne3 -+
C. 19.d4 Qe4 20.Kb3 b5 21.Bxb5 Bd7 22.Nc3 Qb7 -+

Also, in another sub-variant of 4C
micawber wrote on 09/01/10 at 17:25:01:


4C5. 11.h3 Bh4 12.g3 Bxg3 13.Ng5

Black has a stunning 13...Ng4! -+

As to de Zeeuw's "refutation №1", Black has
8...Bh4 and now
A. 9.Bxd5 Bg4 10.Qd2 (or 10.Bxc6 bc 11.Qd2 Nxe4! 12.de Qf6+ with soon mate) Nxd5 followed by 11...Nd4 is a disaster for White, e.g. 11.ed Qf6+ 12.Kg1 Nd4 or 11.h3 Nd4 12.hg Qf6+ 13.Kg1 Nd4 14.Nc3 Nfe2+
B. 9.ed Bg4 
    B1 10.Qd2 Nd4 11.Qe3 Nxc2 12.Qd2 Nd4! 13.Qe3 Be2+ 14.Qxe2 Nxe2 15.Kxe2 Qd7 -+
    B2 10.dc Bxd1 11.cb Rb8 12.Nc3 (Ne4 was threatening) Bxc2 is decisive.
C. 9.Bb5 Bg4 10.Qd2 0-0-0 11.h3 allows 11...Nxe4!? to be played right now 12.de Qf6+ 13.Ke2 Nd4+, but 11...Qc5 could be even stronger, since micawber's 13...Nxe4! definitely works. Perhaps, White has to remove bad knight c6. 10.Bxc6!? bc 11.Qd2, but it should not help either. 11...Nxe4! 12.de Qf6+ 13.Kg1 0-0-0 and now after 14.h3 de 15.Qxd8 Qxd8 16.Kh2 (otherwise 16...Qd1+ or 16...Qd4+ are murderous) Bf2 (threat Qh4) Black should win.

Refutation №2

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.exd5 Nd4 9.h3 Bh4 10.d6 Qxd6 11.Nf7 Qc5 12.Na3 e4
After 12...Ne4!? White escapes with 13.Nd6+! the beginning of long combination 13...cxd6 14.Qh5+ g6 15.Qxh4 Nf5 16.Bb5+ Bd7 17.Bxd7+ Kxd7 18.Qxh7+ Kc6 19.d4 Qxd4 20.Qc7+ Pointe! 20...Kxc7 21.Nb5+ Kd7 22.Nxd4 Nxd4 23.c3 Ng3+ 24.Kg1 Nde2+ 25.Kh2 Nxh1 26.Kxh1 Nxc1 27.Rxc1 Rf8 and in this endgame White is only slightly worse.
13.g4 Nh5!? (apart from 13...Be6, which also may be good) Black develops his knight to g3 or f4. Tactical basis is simple: 14.gxh5?? Qf5+ and mate in two. White has several possibilities:
A. 14.Rg1 Qe7 15.Rg2 (15.Kg2 Nf4+ 16.Kh2 Nf3+ 17.Kh1 Bf2–+) 15...Qf6+ 16.Kg1 Nf4 17.Qf1 (17.Nb5 Nxh3+–+; 17.Kh1 Nxg2 18.c3 Ne1 19.cxd4 Be6 20.Qe2 Bxf7 and despite temporarily equal material White is lost, e.g. 21.Qxe4+ Kd7 22.Qf5+ Qxf5 23.gxf5 Rf8 and Black begins his harvest; 17.c3 Nxh3+ 18.Kh2 Nf3+ 19.Kxh3 Be1 20.Qxe1 Nxe1 21.Be2 Qxf7–+) 17...Be6 18.Kh1 (18.Bxe6?? Nxh3+–+) 18...Bxc4 19.Nxc4 Qxf7 20.Rh2 Bg3;
B. 14.d3 e3 15.Bxe3 Ng3+ 16.Ke1 Nge2+ 17.Kf1 Qc6 18.Bb5 Nxb5 19.Nd6+ (19.Kxe2?? Qg2+ 20.Bf2 Qxf2#; 19.Rh2 Qf3+ 20.Bf2 Nbd4–+) 19...cxd6 20.Qxe2 Qxh1+ 21.Bg1+ Kf8 22.Nxb5 Qxh3+ 23.Qg2 Bxg4 with pair of bishops and an extra pawn in endgame;
C. 14.Rh2 Be6
   C1. 15.Bxe6 Ng3+ 16.Kg2 e3 17.dxe3 Qc6+ 18.Kg1 Nde2+ 19.Kf2 Qxe6 20.Nd6+ (20.Ke1 Qxf7–+) 20...cxd6 21.Ke1 Qe4–+;
   C2. 15.gxh5 Bxc4+ 16.Nxc4 Qxc4+ 17.Kg1 [17.d3 Qxf7+ 18.Kg2 (18.Kg1 Nf3+–+) 18...exd3 19.cxd3 Qd5+ 20.Kf1 Bg3–+] 17...Nf3+ 18.Kh1 Nxh2 19.Kxh2 Qxf7–+; and finally, 
   C3. 15.d3 Ng3+ 16.Kg2 ed -+

Refutation №3 (just developing John Jerz' variant from -0.36 to -1.5 at least  Smiley)

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.exd5 Nd4 9.Be2 Bh4 10.c3? Nxe2 11.Qxe2 Bg4 12.Qb5+ Nd7 13.Kg1
But let's first take a closer look at 13.g3, because there are a few inaccuracies in Heisman’s CD 13…Qf6+ 14.Kg1 Bh3 15.Qe2 0–0–0 16.d4 (Not better is 16.d3 Rf8 17.Nd2 e4–+) 16...Rf8 17.Nd2 (or 17.Bf4 exf4 18.Nd2 f3 19.Nxf3 Bg4 20.Rf1 Bxf3 21.Qe6 Bg5 22.h4 Bd2 23.Kh2 g5–+) 17...exd4 “seems less accurate”, according to Heisman, but in fact is the strongest here 18.Nf3 Qxf3 19.Qxf3 Rxf3 20.Bf4 Bf6–+
13...Qf6 14.Qf1 (14.g3? Bh3 15.Qe2 to cover f3 15...0–0–0 16.d3 Rf8 17.Bf4 exf4 18.Nd2 Ne5–+) 14...Qb6+ 15.d4 0–0–0 at this point J.Jerz's analysis ends. It is clear that Black has an adequate attack for sacrifice, but let's look a bit further.
   A. Simple development does not help: 16.Nd2 Rf8 17.Nf7 (17.Qd3 exd4 18.Nf3 Ne5 19.Qxd4 Qxd4+ 20.cxd4 Nxf3+ 21.gxf3 Bh3–+; 17.Nf3 exd4 18.Qd3 Ne5 transposes to 17.Qd3) 17...exd4 18.Nc4 Qg6 19.Nfd6+ Kb8 20.Bf4 Bg5–+;
   B. 16.g3 (to secure e1 square for his queen) 16...Rf8 (Buecker in his chesscafe article, quoting Pastore?) 17.Nf7 (17.Qe1? exd4–+) 17...Qg6 along with other threats, it is h4-bishop protection. 18.Be3 (18.d6 Rxf7 19.Qc4 c6–+; 18.Nd2 Rxf7 19.Qe1 Bh3–+; 18.Qe1 Bh3 19.Be3 Qxf7 20.Nd2 exd4 21.cxd4 Qxd5 22.Qe2 Bf6–+) 18...exd4 19.Bxd4 Rxf7 20.Qe1 Re7 21.Qf1 Bg5–+;
   C. 16.Qd3 Rf8 17.g3 (for 17.Nd2 exd4 18.Nf3 Ne5–+ see 16.Nd2) and Black can keep attacking 17...exd4 18.Qxd4 Bh3 19.Nd2 Qd6–+, or simply grab pieces back 17...Bg5 18.Bxg5 Qxb2 19.Nd2 Qxa1+ 20.Kg2 Qxa2 21.Rf1 Qxd5+ 22.Kg1 Rxh8 two pawns up, eventually.
   D. 16.Nf7 Rf8 17.g3 Qg6 transposes to 16.g3

Comment on refutation 4C2

After 13.h3 Black doesn't have to make a perpetual with 17...Nf3+, but should rather go on with 17...Qg6 (threat 18...Ne3+), e.g. 18.Kf1 0-0-0 19.d3 Re8, or 18.Qe1+ Ne3+ 19.Kf2 Qf6+! 20.Kxe3 0-0-0.
Next, 13.Kxf2 0-0-0 14.Nxd4 Bxd1 15.c3 is given as 0.00, however Black is winning here with either 15...Ng4+ 16.Ke1 Bf3! or 15...e3+ 16.Ke1 Bg4

Hi can you post this in a PGN format. I will be grateful to you.
  

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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #16 - 09/12/10 at 01:18:10
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micawber wrote on 09/11/10 at 11:29:07:
@[g2-g4]
Thx for your contribution. There are some major improvements over existing theory in your post.
The fact that you are willing to share your findings is appreciated! You put quite a bit of work in it, and I agree with almost all of your findings. 


As two the posters who gave some negative reactions. The forum essentially exists by people like g2-g4 who are willing to add some content to it.

My previous post was not meant to contribute new lines, but only to make clear that a lot of work had been done prior to Master Om's post. (but having played the Traxler for many year's both OTB and in corr. of course I could not resist putting in one good sac when I saw it  Wink

@master om
My post should not be construed as criticism but rather as clarification. I certainly am interested in your findings.

Thanks micawber and g2-g4 for your help. I am looking forward to it.
No micawber i am not like that. I am considering your post as help for me no criticism as my post regarding 5...Nd5 was considered. 
Well Let me make you clear about the methods I am using to find flaws in the lines. I gave taken Stefan Buekers analysis of Chess cafe and running  Deep Positional analysis for 900 secs per move . For a position it takes about 2 days  to analyse.Then i Run Infinite analysis for whole day in 10 PV and then  copy the first 5 moves to the game and again keeping the hash (2 GB) I run again on those position to check myself if there is again something left. My aim is to FIND THE MAIN CONTINUATION RATHER THAN THE SIDE LINES. And believe me micawber Traxler is not refuted in what i found to be the main line as its only a pawn down. My methods that i am using and also some different that i devised for analyis in Corr games is taking time . SO please cooperate I will post soon
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OmPrakash
  

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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #15 - 09/11/10 at 21:51:17
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TonyRo wrote on 09/11/10 at 01:01:40:
What about the Bxf7+ and Bb3 lines with d3? Grin


Stefan bucker's answer is three year ago
there's probably something in Pinski 's book so you want to add more than a smiley  you can! 
  

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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #14 - 09/11/10 at 11:29:07
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@[g2-g4]
Thx for your contribution. There are some major improvements over existing theory in your post.
The fact that you are willing to share your findings is appreciated! You put quite a bit of work in it, and I agree with almost all of your findings. 


As two the posters who gave some negative reactions. The forum essentially exists by people like g2-g4 who are willing to add some content to it.

My previous post was not meant to contribute new lines, but only to make clear that a lot of work had been done prior to Master Om's post. (but having played the Traxler for many year's both OTB and in corr. of course I could not resist putting in one good sac when I saw it  Wink

@master om
My post should not be construed as criticism but rather as clarification. I certainly am interested in your findings.
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #13 - 09/11/10 at 01:01:40
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What about the Bxf7+ and Bb3 lines with d3? Grin
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #12 - 09/10/10 at 20:10:15
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No, definitely no. My research was inspired exactly by Jerz's publication.
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #11 - 09/10/10 at 18:54:58
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g2-g4 wrote on 09/10/10 at 09:17:07:
@Master Om, just to save your time.

micawber wrote on 09/01/10 at 17:25:01:

Refutation 4C
5.Nf7 Bf2 6. Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.exd5 Nd4 9. d6 Qxd6 10. Nf7 and now Qe7 John Jerz's discovery who worked out the most important lines
7 white responses are examined:
4C6. 11. Kxf2 Ng4+ =John Jerz12. Ke1 Qf6 13. Rf1 Qh4+ 14. g3 Qxh2 15. d3 0.00


I looked at this variant several years ago, and found it being lost for White.
15...Qxg3+ 16.Kd2 Qe3+ 17.Kc3 Ne2+ 18.Qxe2 (after 18.Kb3 or 18.Kb4 White is mated) 18...Qxe2 and now b7-b5 is a really annoying threat to f7 knight. White will have to give up at least one piece with his king still being overexposed.
A. 19.Rh1 b5 20.Bd5 a5! -+
B. 19.Nd2 Ne3 -+
C. 19.d4 Qe4 20.Kb3 b5 21.Bxb5 Bd7 22.Nc3 Qb7-+


So you discover 10.-Qe7 before Jerz isn't it!!
  

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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #10 - 09/10/10 at 09:17:07
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@Master Om, just to save your time.

micawber wrote on 09/01/10 at 17:25:01:

Refutation 4C
5.Nf7 Bf2 6. Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.exd5 Nd4 9. d6 Qxd6 10. Nf7 and now Qe7 John Jerz's discovery who worked out the most important lines
7 white responses are examined:
4C6. 11. Kxf2 Ng4+ =John Jerz12. Ke1 Qf6 13. Rf1 Qh4+ 14. g3 Qxh2 15. d3 0.00


I looked at this variant several years ago, and found it being lost for White.
15...Qxg3+ 16.Kd2 Qe3+ 17.Kc3 Ne2+ 18.Qxe2 (after 18.Kb3 or 18.Kb4 White is mated) 18...Qxe2 and now b7-b5 is a really annoying threat to f7 knight. White will have to give up at least one piece with his king still being overexposed.
A. 19.Rh1 b5 20.Bd5 a5! -+
B. 19.Nd2 Ne3 -+
C. 19.d4 Qe4 20.Kb3 b5 21.Bxb5 Bd7 22.Nc3 Qb7 -+

Also, in another sub-variant of 4C
micawber wrote on 09/01/10 at 17:25:01:


4C5. 11.h3 Bh4 12.g3 Bxg3 13.Ng5

Black has a stunning 13...Ng4! -+

As to de Zeeuw's "refutation №1", Black has
8...Bh4 and now
A. 9.Bxd5 Bg4 10.Qd2 (or 10.Bxc6 bc 11.Qd2 Nxe4! 12.de Qf6+ with soon mate) Nxd5 followed by 11...Nd4 is a disaster for White, e.g. 11.ed Qf6+ 12.Kg1 Nd4 or 11.h3 Nd4 12.hg Qf6+ 13.Kg1 Nd4 14.Nc3 Nfe2+
B. 9.ed Bg4 
    B1 10.Qd2 Nd4 11.Qe3 Nxc2 12.Qd2 Nd4! 13.Qe3 Be2+ 14.Qxe2 Nxe2 15.Kxe2 Qd7 -+
    B2 10.dc Bxd1 11.cb Rb8 12.Nc3 (Ne4 was threatening) Bxc2 is decisive.
C. 9.Bb5 Bg4 10.Qd2 0-0-0 11.h3 allows 11...Nxe4!? to be played right now 12.de Qf6+ 13.Ke2 Nd4+, but 11...Qc5 could be even stronger, since micawber's 13...Nxe4! definitely works. Perhaps, White has to remove bad knight c6. 10.Bxc6!? bc 11.Qd2, but it should not help either. 11...Nxe4! 12.de Qf6+ 13.Kg1 0-0-0 and now after 14.h3 de 15.Qxd8 Qxd8 16.Kh2 (otherwise 16...Qd1+ or 16...Qd4+ are murderous) Bf2 (threat Qh4) Black should win.

Refutation №2

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.exd5 Nd4 9.h3 Bh4 10.d6 Qxd6 11.Nf7 Qc5 12.Na3 e4
After 12...Ne4!? White escapes with 13.Nd6+! the beginning of long combination 13...cxd6 14.Qh5+ g6 15.Qxh4 Nf5 16.Bb5+ Bd7 17.Bxd7+ Kxd7 18.Qxh7+ Kc6 19.d4 Qxd4 20.Qc7+ Pointe! 20...Kxc7 21.Nb5+ Kd7 22.Nxd4 Nxd4 23.c3 Ng3+ 24.Kg1 Nde2+ 25.Kh2 Nxh1 26.Kxh1 Nxc1 27.Rxc1 Rf8 and in this endgame White is only slightly worse.
13.g4 Nh5!? (apart from 13...Be6, which also may be good) Black develops his knight to g3 or f4. Tactical basis is simple: 14.gxh5?? Qf5+ and mate in two. White has several possibilities:
A. 14.Rg1 Qe7 15.Rg2 (15.Kg2 Nf4+ 16.Kh2 Nf3+ 17.Kh1 Bf2–+) 15...Qf6+ 16.Kg1 Nf4 17.Qf1 (17.Nb5 Nxh3+–+; 17.Kh1 Nxg2 18.c3 Ne1 19.cxd4 Be6 20.Qe2 Bxf7 and despite temporarily equal material White is lost, e.g. 21.Qxe4+ Kd7 22.Qf5+ Qxf5 23.gxf5 Rf8 and Black begins his harvest; 17.c3 Nxh3+ 18.Kh2 Nf3+ 19.Kxh3 Be1 20.Qxe1 Nxe1 21.Be2 Qxf7–+) 17...Be6 18.Kh1 (18.Bxe6?? Nxh3+–+) 18...Bxc4 19.Nxc4 Qxf7 20.Rh2 Bg3;
B. 14.d3 e3 15.Bxe3 Ng3+ 16.Ke1 Nge2+ 17.Kf1 Qc6 18.Bb5 Nxb5 19.Nd6+ (19.Kxe2?? Qg2+ 20.Bf2 Qxf2#; 19.Rh2 Qf3+ 20.Bf2 Nbd4–+) 19...cxd6 20.Qxe2 Qxh1+ 21.Bg1+ Kf8 22.Nxb5 Qxh3+ 23.Qg2 Bxg4 with pair of bishops and an extra pawn in endgame;
C. 14.Rh2 Be6
   C1. 15.Bxe6 Ng3+ 16.Kg2 e3 17.dxe3 Qc6+ 18.Kg1 Nde2+ 19.Kf2 Qxe6 20.Nd6+ (20.Ke1 Qxf7–+) 20...cxd6 21.Ke1 Qe4–+;
   C2. 15.gxh5 Bxc4+ 16.Nxc4 Qxc4+ 17.Kg1 [17.d3 Qxf7+ 18.Kg2 (18.Kg1 Nf3+–+) 18...exd3 19.cxd3 Qd5+ 20.Kf1 Bg3–+] 17...Nf3+ 18.Kh1 Nxh2 19.Kxh2 Qxf7–+; and finally, 
   C3. 15.d3 Ng3+ 16.Kg2 ed -+

Refutation №3 (just developing John Jerz' variant from -0.36 to -1.5 at least  Smiley)

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.exd5 Nd4 9.Be2 Bh4 10.c3? Nxe2 11.Qxe2 Bg4 12.Qb5+ Nd7 13.Kg1
But let's first take a closer look at 13.g3, because there are a few inaccuracies in Heisman’s CD 13…Qf6+ 14.Kg1 Bh3 15.Qe2 0–0–0 16.d4 (Not better is 16.d3 Rf8 17.Nd2 e4–+) 16...Rf8 17.Nd2 (or 17.Bf4 exf4 18.Nd2 f3 19.Nxf3 Bg4 20.Rf1 Bxf3 21.Qe6 Bg5 22.h4 Bd2 23.Kh2 g5–+) 17...exd4 “seems less accurate”, according to Heisman, but in fact is the strongest here 18.Nf3 Qxf3 19.Qxf3 Rxf3 20.Bf4 Bf6–+
13...Qf6 14.Qf1 (14.g3? Bh3 15.Qe2 to cover f3 15...0–0–0 16.d3 Rf8 17.Bf4 exf4 18.Nd2 Ne5–+) 14...Qb6+ 15.d4 0–0–0 at this point J.Jerz's analysis ends. It is clear that Black has an adequate attack for sacrifice, but let's look a bit further.
   A. Simple development does not help: 16.Nd2 Rf8 17.Nf7 (17.Qd3 exd4 18.Nf3 Ne5 19.Qxd4 Qxd4+ 20.cxd4 Nxf3+ 21.gxf3 Bh3–+; 17.Nf3 exd4 18.Qd3 Ne5 transposes to 17.Qd3) 17...exd4 18.Nc4 Qg6 19.Nfd6+ Kb8 20.Bf4 Bg5–+;
   B. 16.g3 (to secure e1 square for his queen) 16...Rf8 (Buecker in his chesscafe article, quoting Pastore?) 17.Nf7 (17.Qe1? exd4–+) 17...Qg6 along with other threats, it is h4-bishop protection. 18.Be3 (18.d6 Rxf7 19.Qc4 c6–+; 18.Nd2 Rxf7 19.Qe1 Bh3–+; 18.Qe1 Bh3 19.Be3 Qxf7 20.Nd2 exd4 21.cxd4 Qxd5 22.Qe2 Bf6–+) 18...exd4 19.Bxd4 Rxf7 20.Qe1 Re7 21.Qf1 Bg5–+;
   C. 16.Qd3 Rf8 17.g3 (for 17.Nd2 exd4 18.Nf3 Ne5–+ see 16.Nd2) and Black can keep attacking 17...exd4 18.Qxd4 Bh3 19.Nd2 Qd6–+, or simply grab pieces back 17...Bg5 18.Bxg5 Qxb2 19.Nd2 Qxa1+ 20.Kg2 Qxa2 21.Rf1 Qxd5+ 22.Kg1 Rxh8 two pawns up, eventually.
   D. 16.Nf7 Rf8 17.g3 Qg6 transposes to 16.g3

Comment on refutation 4C2

After 13.h3 Black doesn't have to make a perpetual with 17...Nf3+, but should rather go on with 17...Qg6 (threat 18...Ne3+), e.g. 18.Kf1 0-0-0 19.d3 Re8, or 18.Qe1+ Ne3+ 19.Kf2 Qf6+! 20.Kxe3 0-0-0.
Next, 13.Kxf2 0-0-0 14.Nxd4 Bxd1 15.c3 is given as 0.00, however Black is winning here with either 15...Ng4+ 16.Ke1 Bf3! or 15...e3+ 16.Ke1 Bg4
« Last Edit: 09/10/10 at 17:07:05 by g2-g4 »  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #9 - 09/10/10 at 02:29:09
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Djy wrote on 09/09/10 at 20:10:26:
Master Om wrote on 09/01/10 at 12:16:02:
Initially i was also thinking that 5.d4 may be the best move but after deep positional analysis its not true.Black has ample of resources.


Well, it would be nice for this one too!

Well i need time for analysis. It is since 1 week of analysis and i am not finding any Substantial Advantage for white Lets see.
  

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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #8 - 09/09/10 at 20:10:26
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Master Om wrote on 09/01/10 at 12:16:02:
Initially i was also thinking that 5.d4 may be the best move but after deep positional analysis its not true.Black has ample of resources.


Well, it would be nice for this one too!
  

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