Thanks for your thoughful reply GMGolubev.  That game was really instructice.  To me playing training games on the internet this variation comes up alot but I see more f3 in actual tournament play with alot of g3 fianchetto ideas as well.  Any other well annotated games from these lines would be extremely helpful GMGolubev.  Thanks

GMGolubev wrote on 12/10/10 at 07:54:27:

Very interesting game. 19...Bf6 felt counter-intuitive to me initially exactly due to the factors mentioned in the comments - it could get in the way of the queen. Still it does make sense in other ways, and the method of attacking with the additional resource Bf6-h4 after g4 is of importance.
I did not have the impression that this line is considered one of the truly critical white tries anymore, but it is still a main line and fashion, as is well known, changes rapidly.

Take a look at this game: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1492885 I think Black was winning after 33. Kh1 but he missed it.

walkingterrapin wrote on 11/17/10 at 01:21:13:


I don't get the joke, could you please enlighten me? 

Thanks for the advice Eric and again kyle you are only proving yourself more worthy of the word troll by going back and reading all of my posts!!!!!!! there are some exclams for you.  and white does stand better after Nc3.  you must not understand pawn structure if you cant see that.

Read Pawn Structure Chess by Soltis or something similar.  Don't approach these types of questions as opening questions so much, but rather learn the middlegame plans with these blocked KID structures first.  Then you'll understand the theory much better.  Or maybe buy a book on the King's Indian?

I have got to say, this just sounds absurd.  An Expert playing and trying to understand an opening system/position type by looking at the suggestions of Fritz, apparently without any sort of "book knowledge"?

A few things:

1. Firstly, what is White after? He's going to open up c-file, play Nb5 and Qc2 (generally), and try to land something on c7. White only needs to Black to play a few lame moves here and he'll whip up some dangerous play on the queenside, and in order to defend, you're going to have to give up chances on the kingside. Then you're as good as lost. The book move here is (If I remember correctly) 15...Ng6, with the idea that now 16. Nb5 Ne8! 17. Qc2 Rf7! denies White the c7-square. The rook is also useful on the seventh rank after ...Bf8 and ...Rg7/h7. Yes, Black put his knight on the crappy e8 square, but such is life. In general, White plays Nb5-a3-c4 a lot here, and this will give you an opportunity to put your knight back on f6. Generally, if you can get away with playing ...g4 or useful preparatory moves before resorting to ...h5, that's good. The move ...h5 does indeed prepare ...g4, you're on the right track there, but it also takes away some valuable squares for your pieces. Now ...Rf6-h6 isn't as effective because your pawn blocks your rooks path down the h-file, and ...Nh5 isn't possible because there's a pawn there. If you push to h4 to give your knight that square, your queen doesn't have the h4-square. Ideally, you'd like h4 and h5 clear. Now, in the main lines Black has no choice but to play ...h5, but at least force White to force you to play that way! A lot of times you can get away with ...g4 because if fxg4 ...Nxe4 (for instance, if White leaves the e-pawn hanging with Nb5 ideas. This will allow you a lot of counterplay in the center when you move the knight back and push ...e4, opening up that huge bishop. 

2. Another thought - it would be useful to look over a lot of KID games in this line, for instance on chessgames.com. I don't think I've ever played a game in this line and played ...gxf3. Maybe a few, but I doubt it. Generally, Black plays ...g3 and then lays down a piece on h3. 

3. Thirdly, don't believe computers in these middlegames. Computers will never (almost never) want to play ...g3 themselves. The computer is perhaps too long term, or needs to be justified by more material sacrificing, which computers, for some reason, don't get. Maybe if you let it think for a while, or show it the moves so it stores the position in it's hash tables, it will catch on, but it's not easy to analyze these lines with a computer.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for your thoughful replay Tony.  I will post some games once I get back to my house tonight.  I understand all of your points and in one of my recent games my opponent played h3 as well to go with this system trying to stop g4.  i won after a long protracted struggle in a poor ending, but i found myself not comprehending what to do once g4 was stopped.

I think i am missing something in this line of the classical.  white always ends up getting in c5 before i can do anything on the K-side.  any help or related master games would be helpful.  thanks alot.