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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Another attempt to understand KID (Read 17408 times)
gewgaw
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Re: Another attempt to understand KID
Reply #7 - 10/26/10 at 13:19:19
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hi all,

thanks so far for your valuable comments!
The KID is a good opening against me, because I tend to see ghousts and gnomes, when black gets his standard attack on the kingside, so this is the reason, why I´m so reluctant to close the center with d4d5.,

Let´s play 12.d4d5 then I fear 12. ...c5 13.a3 f5 14.b4 f4 15.Bf2 b6 and black gets his attack, while my play at the queenside has slown down. My problem in this positions is to evaluate such positions, how would the forum evaluate the position after 15. ...b6? (*)

Consequently i didn´t play 13.d4d5 and in move 14 I thought about even 14.ef5 or 14.b5, just to avoid 14.d4d5.

Please don´t recommend me switching the opening, these themes are so principle, that I really want to understand them. Instead, if you have time and leasure, show me some promissing lines after (*).  Smiley
  

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BPaulsen
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Re: Another attempt to understand KID
Reply #6 - 10/26/10 at 05:25:22
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6...Bg4 isn't dubious, it aims to trade for the N and close the position to exploit the advantage of Ns versus Bs, or in the case of Ng1 to trade pieces which eases the task for a defender.

It's a strategically sound concept on the surface, and shouldn't be confused with Mar del Plata lines conceptually.

Just because something doesn't equalize doesn't make it dubious.
  

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Re: Another attempt to understand KID
Reply #5 - 10/26/10 at 05:10:11
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Not sure about labelling ...Bg4 on move 5 as dubious; after 6. Be3 I would be inclined to play 6...Nc6, whereupon I doubt that White has better than 7. Be2 0-0, which is supposed to be one of the many += lines in this ...Bg4 stuff. 

On 6. Be2 0-0 7. Be3 Nbd7, 8. h3 is another "book += line," though after 8...Bxf3 9. Bxf3 Black also has 9...c5. 
  
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spagh3tti
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Re: Another attempt to understand KID
Reply #4 - 10/26/10 at 04:44:44
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I'm not going to respond point by point, I'll just make a couple of observations.
From a strategical standpoint I think Black's play is dubious. When light-squared bishops get exchanged Black must know that with that goes most of his/her K-side attack (yes, of course, provided White knows how to defend those positions). I think it's a mistake here to play for a typical K-side attack and, in this respect, I consider 10...e5 already dubious. If you closed the center with 11. d5 the resulting KID position should favor White, and Black's 14...f4, albeit consistent, is actually a compounding of the previous mistake.
Also, since black's Nbd7 already declares his/her intentions to play for ...e5 another idea could be to delay castling and play Ne8 g4. The absence of the light-squared bishops is actually detrimental to Black's counterplay on the Q-side so your King should be less worried than usual to stay a lilttle longer in the center (I dunno, just an idea).
...Bg4 is not a ?!-move per se, but black must follow up in dragon style with ...c5 (5...Bg4 6. Be2 0-0 7. Be3 Nfd7 being the actual theoretical continuation). The situation would be different if you closed the center here because in a benoni structure Black is usually trying to exchange his/her light-squared bishop anywhere, whereas here it's already gone. 
Allowing cd4 gives us a Maroczy without the light-squared bishops, which I'm not sure whose in favor of is. Although bad bishops can be a pain in the endgame, in the middlegame here, as say in the French or the Najdor, they actually are the foundation of the whole light-square/dark-square strategy. I think White's middlegame here would be stronger with the light-squared bishop than without.
I faced Bg4 only once, against a GM. A game where I never seemed to get anywhere and was drawn pretty soon. I'never knew much theory in this lines but that game left me with the lasting impression that those Bg4-lines may be just ok for Black, and that their lack of popularity may be just due to the fact that they are relatively unambitious.
  
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TN
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Re: Another attempt to understand KID
Reply #3 - 10/26/10 at 03:59:24
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Quote:
#1: I´d give 5. ...Bg4 a ?!, because the later trade of the light bishops favours white - FALSE or TRUE?!


You are right, but for the wrong reasons. 

5...Bg4 is too early because White has not committed to Be2. This means that White can play 6.Be3 0-0 7.Qd2! since after 7...Bf3 8.gf3 Nc6 9.d5 Ne5 10.Be2 White has a definite advantage. If Black prefers 7...Nfd7 by analogy to 6.Be2 Bg4 7.0-0 Nbd7, then 8.Ng1! Nb6 9.f3 Bd7 10.Bd3 is very good for White. 

Also, 7...Nbd7 is imprecise because Black cannot put pressure on the d4-pawn. Better is 7...Nfd7 to prepare ...c5 or ...Nc6. Your reply 8.Ng1 lets Black off too easily because after 10...e5 it's a normal Samisch where White has exchanged his bad bishop but Black has an extra tempo compared to usual proceedings. Instead I'd follow Kasparov's example with 8.h3! Bf3 9.Bf3 e5 10.d5 with a pleasant advantage for White. Black can't even play for a kingside attack with ...f5-f4 because he lacks the key light-squared bishop. 

Quote:
After 10.f3, white plays a maroczy-structure, without the light bishop this structure is even better?! - F o T?


This isn't a Maroczy Bind structure at all. This is a Samisch pawn structure. White has a small edge after 10.f3, but you could have had a larger advantage with 8.h3 earlier. 

Quote:
#3: 12.Rb1 - After 25 minutes of thought, I finally played this move. An engine doesn´t help in this position, what would you play and why?


12.Rb1 doesn't improve your position much because often White can play b4 without the preparatory move Rb1. Instead 12.d5! is screaming out to be played. You secure a permanent central space advantage and prepare queenside play with b4 and c5. If Black plays ...c5 and ...f5-f4, you are clearly better because you can gain the advantage on the queenside with a3/b4, whereas Black can't do anything dangerous on the kingside without his light-squared bishop. If you're wondering why Black's light-squared bishop is so important, have a look at Gelfand-Kantsler, Israel 2001. Perhaps Black should play 12...Qa5, but then 13.a3 or 13.Rb1 preparing b4 is quite strong. Black has no counterplay and will probably suffer for the rest of the game.

Quote:
#4: 14.c5 - what would you play and why?


Seth_Xoma is right. 14.c5? brings Black's position completely to life because White is not adequately prepared for such an advance. Again you should play 14.d5!, this time with a clear advantage because Black has fiddled around with 12...Kh8?!. 

Quote:
#5: After 15.Bf2 white has a strategical winning structure, do you agree?


No. After 15...ed4 16.Nd4 Qf6 17.cd6 Nd6 White has a minority attack on the queenside with b5 and a passed pawn on e4, but the e5-outpost for the knight partly compensates for that. 

To be brutally honest, this game makes me doubt whether you should have the Classical KID in your White repertoire. I think the Fianchetto Variation would be a more suitable choice for you.
  

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Seth_Xoma
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Re: Another attempt to understand KID
Reply #2 - 10/26/10 at 00:57:29
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#1: I´d give 5. ...Bg4 a ?!, because the later trade of the light bishops favours white - FALSE or TRUE?!

I don't have any experience in these early Bg4 lines, so I don't feel qualified giving the move a question mark. However, I can say that I have never understood trading the light-squared bishops in the King's Indian. Black often goes to great lengths to preserve this bishop to enable ...Bxh3 sacrifices in the Mar del Plata line. Since I played this variation many times, it got drilled into my head that ...Bg4 was against the spirit of the KID.

#2: After 10.f3, white plays a maroczy-structure, without the light bishop this structure is even better?! - F o T?

I have even less experience in Maroczy-type structures when White is without the light-squared bishop. I've heard differing opinions on this. One camp says White has traded off his "bad" bishop and is much better for it. The other camp argues that this is too superficial a judgement and that the light-squared bishop actually performs an admirable job protecting, for example, the c4-pawn. This is normally said of positions with the d4 and c5 pawns exchanged, so I don't know how applicable these arguments are here. I would say that since Black does not have ...Rc8 attacking c4, White has definitely benefited from trading off his bad bishop. 

#3: 12.Rb1 - After 25 minutes of thought, I finally played this move. An engine doesn´t help in this position, what would you play and why?

IMO, the most natural choice is 12.Qd2 followed by 13.Rad1. Black cannot really play 12...f5 as his whole position looks very shaky after 13.exf5 gxf5 14.dxe5 dxe5 15.Rad1. And if Black cannot play ...f5, then his whole 11...Ne8 plan is suspect. Black should not have played this 11...Ne8 until the center had become blocked.

#4: 14.c5 - what would you play and why?


I like 14...fxe4. What does White play then? If 15.fxe4 Rxf1+ 16.Qxf1 exd4 17.Bxd4 Qe7 I like Black's position. e4 looks weak and I have a nice blockading square on e5 for a knight maybe. If White instead chooses 15.Nxe4, then d5 16.Ng5 Qe7 and I prefer Black slightly.

#5: After 15.Bf2 white has a strategical winning structure, do you agree?

I would not go so far as to say "Strategically winning," but White most definitely has a good-sized plus, yes. Black is very passive while White has good pressure everywhere.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Another attempt to understand KID
Reply #1 - 10/26/10 at 00:06:06
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Well, my first observation would be that the ...Bg4 thing is an established book line (usually in the form of 5...0-0 6. Be2 Bg4).
  
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gewgaw
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Another attempt to understand KID
10/25/10 at 22:09:29
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hi all,

I played against the KID this weekend [draw after heavy timetrouble] and again there were some riddles, were I´m not sure about the answer
1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 g6 3. c4 Bg7 4.Nc3 d6 5. e4 Bg4 6. Be2 O-O 7. Be3 Nbd7 8. Ng1 Bxe2 9. Ngxe2 c6 10. f3 e5 11. O-O Ne8 12. Rb1 Kh8 13. b4 f5 14.c5 f4 15. Bf2

#1: I´d give 5. ...Bg4 a ?!, because the later trade of the light bishops favours white - FALSE or TRUE?!
#2: After 10.f3, white plays a maroczy-structure, without the light bishop this structure is even better?! - F o T?
#3: 12.Rb1 - After 25 minutes of thought, I finally played this move. An engine doesn´t help in this position, what would you play and why?
#4: 14.c5 - what would you play and why?
#5: After 15.Bf2 white has a strategical winning structure, do you agree?

Anyone out there, who can answer my questions/statements?
  

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