gewgaw wrote on 10/25/10 at 22:09:29:

I think if you gave the move 25 minutes of thought, you might get better feedback by adding your thought process on the move and see if the strong players like the way you thought about it.

Khalifman covers mostly everything related to his repertoire choice - so everything pertaining to the Classical KID, nothing on h3 related systems.

If you give me the exact move order you're concerned with I'll see if I can locate it in Khalifman. I won't give everything he cites, but will mention the main path he sets out.

Well, that does seem to have a more critical look to it.  It seems that the Foisors (a married IM couple) didn't play that exact line again after the 1993 game, preferring e.g. 7...Nfd7 (as noted, the main book line).

I too wouldn't have thought that Black should be playing ...c5 there.  Panczyk and Ilczuk have ...Nb8 only without the preliminary ...Bxf3, giving 8...Nb8 9. 0-0 c6 10. Rc1 Nfd7 11. h3 Bxf3 12. Bxf3 a5 13. Re1 Na6 (thus far A. Delchev-O. Foisor, Mangalia 1992) 14. Na4!? +=.  Nd4 doesn't seem to be a particular worry.  

Regarding 8...Bxf3 9. gf, the Poles evidently think that White should also get some advantage there.  They give a few lines and citations, e.g. Van Wely-I. Rogers, Dutch team ch 2000 (where White ended up clearly better, but a suggested improvement is 13...Qa5 with the idea of ...Rfc8) and Granda Zuniga-T. Taylor, New York 1987 (where "White was better in the endgame"). 

Michael Ayton wrote on 10/30/10 at 10:13:29:


From Khalifman's analysis on the first line you quote, and he's noticeably not too fond of black's chances:

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. d4 0-0 6. Be2 Bg4 7. Be3 Nc6 8. d5 Bxf3 9. Bxf3 Nb8 10. 0-0 Nfd7 (10...Nbd7 11. Be2 c5 12. f4 +/-, Hill-Stewart, Correspondence 1994) 11. Rc1 c5 12. Be2 Na6 +/-, Kretchetov-Boysan, Dos Hermanas 2003.

7...Nfd7 is the main line, which white normally replies to with 8. Rc1. White's edge is much smaller than in the previous line (just += instead of +/-), but it's still a lasting one.

As for what black "fears" - white has more space due to the Pc4 than in the Classical Pirc, hence black's equalizing task being much easier there, whereas in the King's Indian Defense equivalent there is a real risk of getting squeezed off the board.

Obviously it's still a game, and black's playable.

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Above you quoted 6...Nfd7 - 7. Bg5 leads to +/- according to Khalifman, but I won't post all of it. The source game is T. Petrosian-Mukhitdinov, Tashkent 1951.

A good perspective on the white point of view is in the "Opening for White According to Kramnik 1A" book by Khalifman.

As for the earlier comparison to the Classical Pirc - part of the motivation for the 6...Bg4 lines in the Classical Pirc is precisely the fact that white has a Pc2, hampering his Q-side play.

On 8. d5 there is also 8...Bxf3 9. Bxf3 Ne5 (I would think of this as probably the most typical reaction in "such positions," and here it is treated as the main line in NCO, ECO and Panczyk/Ilczuk) or 8...Bxf3 9. Bxf3 Na5.  9. gf is apparently a serious possibility too.

hi all,

thanks so far for your valuable comments!
The KID is a good opening against me, because I tend to see ghousts and gnomes, when black gets his standard attack on the kingside, so this is the reason, why I´m so reluctant to close the center with d4d5.,

Let´s play 12.d4d5 then I fear 12. ...c5 13.a3 f5 14.b4 f4 15.Bf2 b6 and black gets his attack, while my play at the queenside has slown down. My problem in this positions is to evaluate such positions, how would the forum evaluate the position after 15. ...b6? (*)

Consequently i didn´t play 13.d4d5 and in move 14 I thought about even 14.ef5 or 14.b5, just to avoid 14.d4d5.

Please don´t recommend me switching the opening, these themes are so principle, that I really want to understand them. Instead, if you have time and leasure, show me some promissing lines after (*). 

Not sure about labelling ...Bg4 on move 5 as dubious; after 6. Be3 I would be inclined to play 6...Nc6, whereupon I doubt that White has better than 7. Be2 0-0, which is supposed to be one of the many += lines in this ...Bg4 stuff. 

On 6. Be2 0-0 7. Be3 Nbd7, 8. h3 is another "book += line," though after 8...Bxf3 9. Bxf3 Black also has 9...c5. 

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You are right, but for the wrong reasons. 

5...Bg4 is too early because White has not committed to Be2. This means that White can play 6.Be3 0-0 7.Qd2! since after 7...Bf3 8.gf3 Nc6 9.d5 Ne5 10.Be2 White has a definite advantage. If Black prefers 7...Nfd7 by analogy to 6.Be2 Bg4 7.0-0 Nbd7, then 8.Ng1! Nb6 9.f3 Bd7 10.Bd3 is very good for White. 

Also, 7...Nbd7 is imprecise because Black cannot put pressure on the d4-pawn. Better is 7...Nfd7 to prepare ...c5 or ...Nc6. Your reply 8.Ng1 lets Black off too easily because after 10...e5 it's a normal Samisch where White has exchanged his bad bishop but Black has an extra tempo compared to usual proceedings. Instead I'd follow Kasparov's example with 8.h3! Bf3 9.Bf3 e5 10.d5 with a pleasant advantage for White. Black can't even play for a kingside attack with ...f5-f4 because he lacks the key light-squared bishop. 

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This isn't a Maroczy Bind structure at all. This is a Samisch pawn structure. White has a small edge after 10.f3, but you could have had a larger advantage with 8.h3 earlier. 

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12.Rb1 doesn't improve your position much because often White can play b4 without the preparatory move Rb1. Instead 12.d5! is screaming out to be played. You secure a permanent central space advantage and prepare queenside play with b4 and c5. If Black plays ...c5 and ...f5-f4, you are clearly better because you can gain the advantage on the queenside with a3/b4, whereas Black can't do anything dangerous on the kingside without his light-squared bishop. If you're wondering why Black's light-squared bishop is so important, have a look at Gelfand-Kantsler, Israel 2001. Perhaps Black should play 12...Qa5, but then 13.a3 or 13.Rb1 preparing b4 is quite strong. Black has no counterplay and will probably suffer for the rest of the game.

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Seth_Xoma is right. 14.c5? brings Black's position completely to life because White is not adequately prepared for such an advance. Again you should play 14.d5!, this time with a clear advantage because Black has fiddled around with 12...Kh8?!. 

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No. After 15...ed4 16.Nd4 Qf6 17.cd6 Nd6 White has a minority attack on the queenside with b5 and a passed pawn on e4, but the e5-outpost for the knight partly compensates for that. 

To be brutally honest, this game makes me doubt whether you should have the Classical KID in your White repertoire. I think the Fianchetto Variation would be a more suitable choice for you.

Well, my first observation would be that the ...Bg4 thing is an established book line (usually in the form of 5...0-0 6. Be2 Bg4).