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Normal Topic English Attack-Simple line for Black (?) (Read 6614 times)
Ametanoitos
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Re: English Attack-Simple line for Black (?)
Reply #9 - 02/09/11 at 12:27:54
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I come back to this interesting subject because i read Yakovich's analysis in his excellent book "Sicilian Attacks". He states that Kasparov quit playing this Nc6+Nxd4 variation because indeed it is very dangerous for Black but to be honest i still cannot understand why. I don't say that i understand better than Yakovich or Kasparov, i just say that i need help to see why Black is worse and still this help hasn't arrived!

So, Yakovich tried to persuade me with the following variation: 11.Bxd4 (he doesn't like 11.Qxd4 but he gives no variations there) 11...b5 12.g5 Nd7 13.h4 b4 14.Ne2 (he gives a better variation than Emms after 14.Na4?! Qa5! 15.b3 Nc5! The exclams are Yakovich's. Emms just gives 15...Bb7 as i wrote in my original post above) 14...a5 15.Kb1 Qc7 (Emms mentions also 15...Bb7 that "cannot be bad" without variations. Indeed Yakovich has proven that the plan with Bb7+Rc8 is not good because of a3! as given in a notes of a well known Topalov-Kasparov game. Now that a3 is not possible then ...Bb7 seems OK indeed) 16.Ng3 and now only 16...d5 is given which is indeed tha only move tried in practice and the move given also by Emms. Looking a bit quickly at the position i analysed 16...Bb7!?N and now 17.f4 e5!? seems fine as is 17.h4 d5 (or first Rfc8!?). The White's idea has to be 17.Nh5 but i see nothing here either after 17...e5 19.Be3 Rd8!? with the aim to play ...d5, for example 20.Be2 d5 21.exd5 Nf8

I still don't know how Black gets a bad position in this line. I should probably check Khalifman's recent book but as i showed (i hope that i did!) Yakovich's lines are not a threat. Anyone eager to help here? Smiley
  
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Markovich
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Re: English Attack-Simple line for Black (?)
Reply #8 - 11/02/10 at 22:58:23
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TN,

I hadn't gotten around to looking at 16.Kb1, a strong move.  I just now looked at it for a while, and I think my preference might be for 16...Bd7 17.b3 as in Kharlov - Popov, 2004 (a corr game, I believe, but am not sure).  However instead of 17...e5 as played, I recommend the prosaic 17...Qc7 and then 18.h5 Na7.  This transposes into Hermansson - Rytshagov, 2003 (I don't have a venue), where the position arose via 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 e6 7.f3 Nc6 8.Qd2 Be7 9.O-O-O O-O 10.Kb1 Qc7 11.g4 b5 12.g5 Nd7 13.h4 Nde5 14.Qg2 b4 15.Nxc6 Nxc6 16.Na4 Rb8 17.h5 Bd7 18.b3 Na7.

Here a draw was strangely agreed after 19.Bd4; Black presumably would play 19...Nb5 with unclear relative prospects.  But say 19.g6 Nb5 (but not 19...h6 20.Bxh6!) 20.gxh7+ Kxh7 and it's all quite unclear to me.  I have no idea if Black's counterplay is sufficient, but at least he has some.  For instance, it appears that 20.Bxb5 axb5 21.Bg5 Bxg5 22.Qxg5 bxa4 is tenable for Black.  Or instead of 21.Bg5, 21.Nb2 Ra8 22.Nd3 Bf6 23.e5 Bxe5 24.Nxe5 dxe5 continues in an unclear vein.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.
  

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TN
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Re: English Attack-Simple line for Black (?)
Reply #7 - 11/02/10 at 22:04:25
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Quote:
I myself have lately been researching 10...Nd7 (instead of 10...Nxd4) 11.h4 Nde5, and after some fairly deep investigations, I'm preliminarily satisfied with Black's chances.  For instance, the pdf file on this website, which is quite negative about Black's game whether or not he exchanges on d4, gives 12.Qg2 b5 13.Nxc6 Nxc6 14.g5 Qa5 as pretty much winning for White, but I think that 15...b4!? is good.  Black's attack is just as strong as White's after 16.Ne2 a5 17.h5 a4, which leaves 16.Na4, a move I have investigated a great deal, reaching conclusions satisfactory for Black.  I don't want to reveal the lengthy details here, but I might be willing to share my ideas privately with someone who wanted to partner up. 

De la Villa prefers 12.Qf2, but after 12...Bd7! 13.g5 b5 14.Nxc6 Bxc6 17.Kb1 ("!" - De la Villa) he overlooks 17...f5!?, which I think is quite promising for Black.

Anyway I would be happy if 10...Nxd4 also worked, so I look forward to your reply.


I agree that 12.Qf2 doesn't give White any advantage; 12.Qg2 should be White's best chance to prove an edge. The main line of my analysis runs 12.Qg2 b5 13.Nc6 Nc6 14.Be3 Qa5 15.Kb1 b4 16.Ne2 d5 and now I think 18.h5!? is better for White. 

Your 14...b4 idea has scored pretty well for Black (3.5/4), but after 15.Na4 Rb8 16.Kb1 d5 17.ed5 ed5 18.b3! White has the advantage. His plan is to play Bd3 and f4-f5 with a strong attack, whereas I can't see an equivalent plan for Black on the queenside. 



  

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Ametanoitos
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Re: English Attack-Simple line for Black (?)
Reply #6 - 11/02/10 at 21:02:55
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Yes, but in all those opposite-castling Sicilians Black takes time with his piece play while White plays with his pawns. Black has the 'c' file, so he doesn't need to open lines against the King as White does. That's why White should be quick and losing time with piece play is not usual. But OK, who am i kidding? The position is so complex that giving such guidlines is just useless. I agree with your criticism over my comments.

Your analysis in the ...Nd7 line starts to interest me more. I'll look more on it and i'll contact you personaly. I also have to say that i received some advice from a titled friend of mine for the Nd7 (not Nc6)-b5-b4 variation where Black is considered OK there.
  
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Markovich
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Re: English Attack-Simple line for Black (?)
Reply #5 - 11/02/10 at 18:37:20
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It merely gives 12...Nd7 13.Kd1 b5 14.h4 b4 15.Ne2, Bojic - Cebalo, Zurich 1999, a game that apparently was analyzed in an early update.  I could dig up the annotations, but I don't think that revealing them here would be fair to Tony.

But I wonder if Bojic's 13.Kb1 isn't a big challenge to Black after 13...b5 14.g5!.  White's point is that his g-pawn doesn't hang after 14...Ne5 15.f4!, so 15...Nc6 16.Qd2.  Now 16...b4 17.Na4 looks bad for Black.  So instead of 14...Ne5 maybe Black should play 14...Rb8, which is the subject of several games in my data base, and which is murky to me.  Really I don't like White's queen standing so proudly in the center.

Concerning your evaluation earlier of Black's game after 17.Ne2, I'm not sure that I really buy your point that White's game is suspect because of his loss of time with his minor pieces.  Black also has dithered about a great deal with Nd7-e5-c6-e5, and must move his Q again in order to attack.   I am willing to accept, provisionally anyway, your judgment that Black is O.K., but I find it difficult to look at that position and say as a matter of pure positional judgment that Black is fine.  This could simply mean that you understand the position much better than I do.

One thing I've noticed in my analyses of 10...Nd7, which I assume carries over into 10...Nxd4 and 11...Nd7, is that Black doesn't die just because White gets in g5, h5, g6.  Black standardly defends with ...h6 and after move-pairs like (gxf7 Rxf7); (Bxh6 Bf6); Black has his own attack and there is still a game left.  White, for one thing, isn't attacking with all that much wood.  However with his queen unchallenged on d4, White also has h6 ideas instead of g6. 

All in all, the line with ...Nc6 is sharp and quite appealing, at least for this amateur.
  

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Re: English Attack-Simple line for Black (?)
Reply #4 - 11/02/10 at 17:13:04
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Yes, both lines (with Nxd4 and not) have the same ideas. Maybe it would be a nice search topic to discover which one is best of the two. As i said the ...Nxd4 line was the one that was shown to me when i was young that's why i have some positive feelings for it. Also this was Rowson's trusted weapon for some years. I don't know what Rowson now plays though.

So, it seems that De la Villa has nothing to discourage us. Maybe Khalifman is more successful on this? Also does the site's pdf you mentioned has something concrete against my above recommended variations?
  
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Re: English Attack-Simple line for Black (?)
Reply #3 - 11/02/10 at 16:36:19
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Thanks very much for that very forthcoming answer!  In the four games in my data base, all 2300+, 18...Bb7 is chosen instead of your 18...Bd7.  That move also appears viable.  But I find it most enlightening to discover how you would continue after 17.Ne2, so thanks again.

I would like it if both 10...Nxd4 and 10...Nd7 were viable.  It turns out that the "complicated piece maneuver" Nd7-e5 is prominent in each. 

The impetus for my investigating this is that after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 6.Be3 Nc6 7.f3 Be7 8.Qd2 O-O 9.O-O-O, the conservative 9...d5 runs into some difficulty after 10.Be2!  And since 9...a6 is more dynamic anyway, I decided to look into it.
  

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Re: English Attack-Simple line for Black (?)
Reply #2 - 11/02/10 at 15:53:02
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When i'm referring to Emms i mean his book "Play the Scheveninghen Najdorf style". Mark, don't get me wrong but these "complicated" piece manouvres like Nd7-Nde5 etc never seemed logical to me. Chess is of course a logical game but also an illogical one in the sense that many things work better than others that seem more logical. Maybe their logic is on another level.  

So, after:

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be3 e6 7. f3 Nc6 8. Qd2 Be7 9. O-O-O O-O 10. g4 Nxd4 11. Qxd4 Nd7 12. h4 Ne5 13. Be2 b5 14. Kb1 Nc6 15.Qd2
(15. Qb6 Qd7 is also given by Emms) 
15... Qa5 
According to Emms this move takes away the possibility of f4+Bg2 or something like that. The main idea of these ...Qa5 moves is to play ...b4 and take away the possibility of Na4 that will block the attack with a5-a4. So in a way the Qa5 helps this idea! (of course the Q has to move later on). Now the idea is ...b5 and White has to lose time:

16. Bd3 b4 17. Ne2 Ne5 18. Nd4 
I could never believe in White's position here. He has lost so much time with Bd3+Ne2+Nd4 and he will lose more because he will have to play Bxc4 in the future. I don't want to sound dogmatic here. I may be wrong and i'm aware of this. This is just my understanding of the position. I'm not a GM, so i'll try to provide some blindfold analysis (i dont have a database here where i am) and please tell me if my understanding is false.

18...Bd7 
Not blind on this. I just remember that this is my analysis. Idea is clear: play Rfc8-Nc4 and then move the Q and push that a pawn
19. Qf2
I think that this may be critical which anticipates the ...Nc4 manouvre. I don't know what else has been played here but after the other logical continuation:
19. h5 Rfc8 20. g5 Nc4 i'd prefer Black because he has the simple plan of Qb5(c7) and a5-a4-b3 with the rook on a8 or b8 or c8 (after Bxc4 Rxc5+Rac8) If g6 is played i do nothing and after gxh7 play Kh8 or even Kxh7 and after h6 play ...g6 with the move ...Be8 always a nice possibility (when f4-f5 comes).

19... Rfc8 20. h5 Nc4 21. Bc1 Qc5 
Typical idea tha FM Pountzas (former Greek champion who lives in my town) has played in similar positions with the Q on f2. ...e5 is a minor theat as is Bd8+Bb6. Also the manouvre Rab8+Na3+ gains some strenght
22. Rdf1 Rab8 
(maybe 22... Bd8 23.f4 Bb6 works?)

and i'd like to be Black here. Maybe i have missed some tactical possibility but overall you can understand my logic here.


  
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Markovich
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Re: English Attack-Simple line for Black (?)
Reply #1 - 11/02/10 at 14:41:31
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Ametanoitos wrote on 11/02/10 at 10:17:27:
After 

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be3 e6 7. f3 

reading Ftacnik analysis i got the feeling that Black plays with fire and the whole Topalov approach (b4-Qa5) is quite risky while White has also ways to make it a positional game (with ...b4 Na4+c4 a la Anand). I started to find for an alternative solution for Black and i remembered the following line that i used when i was younger:

7...Be7 8. Qd2 O-O 9. O-O-O Nc6 
(Kasparov says in his "Revolution on the 70s" book that the ...Nc6 lines give White the initiative. It is true but Black has also his chances and the most important is that he doesn't care about move-orders or other nuances, his play is very very simple)
10. g4 Nxd4 and now two moves:

a) 11. Qxd4 Nd7 12. h4 
(12. f4 b5 13. g5 Rb8 has proved to be great for Black in practise) 
12... Ne5 13. Rh3 
(or 13. Be2 b5 14. Kb1 Nc6 15. Qd2 Qa5 as given by Emms) 



Where does Emms consider this, please?  

But there's a lot of play after 15...Qa5 16.Bd3 b4 17.Ne2, reaching a position from which White scores six points out of ten games in my data base (I don't think that is anything special, but it suggests that there's a whole game of chess to play).  Beyond that I'm suspicious of plans that put the black queen on a5, which blocks Black's b5, a4, a5, b6 pawn storm.  I'd be curious to learn how you think Black should continue after 17.Ne2.

In this line, it's curious that 14...Nc6 isn't considered by De la Villa, who treats (English edition, p.282) 14...Rb8 as the main move and 14...Bb7 and 14...Qa5 as sidelines.  Maybe he thinks that 14...Nc6 15.Qb6 is good for White, but I don't see it after 15...Qd7 ~.

I myself have lately been researching 10...Nd7 (instead of 10...Nxd4) 11.h4 Nde5, and after some fairly deep investigations, I'm preliminarily satisfied with Black's chances.  For instance, the pdf file on this website, which is quite negative about Black's game whether or not he exchanges on d4, gives 12.Qg2 b5 13.Nxc6 Nxc6 14.g5 Qa5 as pretty much winning for White, but I think that 15...b4!? is good.  Black's attack is just as strong as White's after 16.Ne2 a5 17.h5 a4, which leaves 16.Na4, a move I have investigated a great deal, reaching conclusions satisfactory for Black.  I don't want to reveal the lengthy details here, but I might be willing to share my ideas privately with someone who wanted to partner up. 

De la Villa prefers 12.Qf2, but after 12...Bd7! 13.g5 b5 14.Nxc6 Bxc6 17.Kb1 ("!" - De la Villa) he overlooks 17...f5!?, which I think is quite promising for Black.

Anyway I would be happy if 10...Nxd4 also worked, so I look forward to your reply.
« Last Edit: 11/02/10 at 16:23:07 by Markovich »  

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English Attack-Simple line for Black (?)
11/02/10 at 10:17:27
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After 

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be3 e6 7. f3 

reading Ftacnik analysis i got the feeling that Black plays with fire and the whole Topalov approach (b4-Qa5) is quite risky while White has also ways to make it a positional game (with ...b4 Na4+c4 a la Anand). I started to find for an alternative solution for Black and i remembered the following line that i used when i was younger:

7...Be7 8. Qd2 O-O 9. O-O-O Nc6 
(Kasparov says in his "Revolution on the 70s" book that the ...Nc6 lines give White the initiative. It is true but Black has also his chances and the most important is that he doesn't care about move-orders or other nuances, his play is very very simple)
10. g4 Nxd4 and now two moves:

a) 11. Qxd4 Nd7 12. h4 
(12. f4 b5 13. g5 Rb8 has proved to be great for Black in practise) 
12... Ne5 13. Rh3 
(or 13. Be2 b5 14. Kb1 Nc6 15. Qd2 Qa5 as given by Emms) 
13... b5 14. h5 Nc6 15. Qd2 Qa5 16. Kb1 Rd8 like the game Mastrovasillis-Cvitan, 2006 or simply 16... b4 seems adequate for Black. I even prefer his chances slightly but that's just personal taste (or sweet memories from the past? Smiley)

b) 11.Bxd4 b5 12. g5 Nd7 13. h4 b4 14. Ne2
(14. Na4 was used by Fisher but Emms gives 14...Qa5 15. b3 Bb7 16. Kb1 d5 17. e5 Bc6 18. Nb2 Qc7 19. Nd3
(19. f4 is met by Nc5 and if 20. Qxb4 a5 with great play for the pawn) 
19... Bb5 20. f4 Nc5 which is at least equal for Black) 

14... a5 15. f4
(Other moves are not troubling  either:

15. Be3 Ne5 16. Nd4 Bb7 17. h5 b3 or 17... d5 

15. Kb1 Ne5 16. f4 Nc4 with Qc7+Rfc8)

15... Bb7 16. Ng3 e5 17. Be3 exf4 18. Bxf4 Ne5 19. Be2 Qc7 20. h5 Rfc8 with a5-a4-b3 etc as given by Emms.

I looked into Emms Najdorf-Scheveninghen book and i searched chess informants and my database (human and corr) and also my engine. I couldn't find anything for convincing for White. I don't have Khalifman's recent work and De la Villa's recent book was given by me in a friend and i don't know when he will give it back to me Smiley. So, i don't know what these sources recommend against this simple solution for Black. Can anyone help here? If they don't give something convincing then i'd definately choose this line for Black because it's "value for money" in terms of simplicity and theoritical value.

  
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