XChess1971 wrote on 02/26/11 at 15:38:36:


The Merovingian-Swiss_Dragon game was aborted after 13...b5 14.Ndxb5 Qb6 15.Nd4 Rc5 16.Bxf6 Bxf6 17.Nd5 Rxd5, since there was no move from White's side for a very long time. In the pgn-file I have included some analysis of this line, which indicates that Black is at least equal and has very good chances for the full point if White doesn't play the most precise moves. 
From a human point of view, this line is still the one which you are most likely to encounter in practical play. Of course this is likely to change as soon as there appears a sicilian or dragon book featuring the 13...b5!?-line.

XChess1971 wrote on 02/26/11 at 03:50:36:


The games are completely finished since January 31. Check out post #30 of this thread.

OrangeCounty wrote on 02/18/11 at 18:52:44:


Well, if Black was forced to react to 14.g4 with 14...b4, you would be perfectly right. However Black plays 14...a5! with the idea of harrassing the bishop on b3. For example 15.gxh5 a4 and the position is very concrete. The idea of 13...b5 is not so much to follow up with 14...b4, but to play a5 next without giving White the opportunity to lock up the position with a4.

That said, White may consider to wait for one move (without weakening his f3-pawn) and only take on b5 after Black has played 14...a5. For example 14.Kb1!? is an interesting move. Then 14...b4? runs into 15.Nd5 and 14...a5 can be met by 15.Ndxb5 with idea 16.a4. However Black can play 14...Nc4 15.Bxc4 Rxc4, which is perfectly fine. If Black really wants a sharp game, he can also play 14...a5!? 15.Ndxb5 a4 16.Bxa4 Nc4, which gives Black good compensation for the pawns. Even after the stronger 15.Ncxb5! a4 16.Bxa4 Black obtains reasonable compensation with 16...Qb6 or 16...Rc5.

Thank you very much for your analysis on the match.

I am analyzing the possition that starts on 17. h7+ in our game, and will post the analysis soon.

ArKheiN wrote on 01/31/11 at 17:18:37:


There are several solutions to this issue:

1) Only play Ne5 if White has already committed himself to h4. Otherwise play the Topalov-variation (9.Bc4 Bd7 10.0-0-0 Rc8 11.Bb3 Nxd4), which is theoretically very sound, although maybe not as exciting as the Soltis lines.

2) Play the Burnett variation (12.Kb1 Nc4 13.Bxc4 Rxc4 14.g4 b5 15.b3 b4). It leads to very complicated positions and it still looks playable to me after analyzing my game with Heiduczek in more details. However don't expect a clean equalizer.

3) Play 12.Kb1 Re8. As far as I know, there is no refutation of this line.


I do not recommend to play 12.Kb1 a6 at the moment, because I don't see how to get a position with equal chances if White plays 13.h4 h5 14.g4! Maybe new ideas for Black will be found here.

Hello Swiss_Dragon, recently I asked in this thread a question about the Kb1 line instead of Bg5, but I still wonder something. I thought it was one of the biggest challenge at the moment, have you a good line as Black against that? I did not participate to this challenge because I am quite busy and because I don't like to defend a move I don't like much(Bg5)

Swiss Dragon, can i participate in the challenge and test MamboVipi's 15.Na3? If the answer is yes please PM me your email. I hope that i'll be able to play the 10 moves before the work gets a lot.

@Swiss Dragon:

We have a different opinion on that. I still like White's chances in this line. But i also like your fantastic analysis and passion on the ...b5 gambit and the great idea of this challenge concept. And thank you for sharing this with all of us. I like participating in good tries.

@MamboVipi:

It seems that the corr game i pasted inspired you! Yes, indeed that is an interesting try. 15.Na3 Be6 16.Rhe1 and f4-f5 (you give e5 which i have to analyse before i express my opinion) looks good for White. If Black plays Bxb3 after axb3 White has a good defensive formation. Black still has comp and in practice a Dragon player should feel fine, as he does in other positions where he is objectively worse but the counterplay hasn't evaporated yet.

Ametanoitos wrote on 01/31/11 at 11:43:08:


Well, I think that 14...Qb6 is clearly the strongest move in the position and is essential for Black's attacking scheme. 

I think if Black studies the 14...Qb6 15.Nxd6 stuff seriously at home (by replaying the MamboVipi-Swiss_Dragon game and thinking about alternatives), he won't have a hard time at the board.

Ametanoitos wrote on 01/27/11 at 11:49:49:


I see, the guys want some hardcore Dragon stuff!! Check out the challenge games in the pgn-file, which I enriched with some analysis! Any comments are welcome! Especially illustrative for Black's long term compensation is Hoerbiey-Swiss_Dragon. 

White has other options of playing, and I will summarize these later. Just for now I've got other things to do!

cool stuff, you're really tempting me to take up the dragon again. I'm looking forward to reading some of your analysis and the games of course!

Swiss_Dragon wrote on 01/26/11 at 14:34:27:


Yeah, that's bad news for the Dragon. 
Will you give us curious readers (especially me) an overview in the near future? I might be tempted to play this myself as Black.

One more game has finished, the game between Fausto Alava-Moreno and me. It also ended 0:1 after resignation of White on move 23, who realized that Houdini will show a clear advantage for Black after the obvious reply. Actually my opponent improved significantly on Bragesjo's game, but he missed the best continuation later on.

So, that's 0:3 in Black's favour.   

Two games are still being played. Merovingian hasn't sent me a move for more than a week. That's why we are still at move 17, so I really expect to get some moves from his side soon!

Am I following the same line as Bragesjo did?

Interesting ...

Swiss_Dragon wrote on 01/23/11 at 08:40:04:

The second game has finished, Bragesjo-Swiss_Dragon 0:1 after Bragesjo's resignation. We didn't get that far in this game and it will be interesting to see if Fausto Alava-Moreno can improve upon White's play. I will post this game only after all games have finished (same chances for everyone).

The first challenge game is over, Hoerbiey-Swiss_Dragon. Houdini assessed the final position as -0.55. This means Black wins according to our rules. It was really an exciting game. I will post it with some analysis once the other games have finished as well.

I have a small question, does your study of that line for Black means that you have found a good line against the supposed critical 12.Kb1(!)?

Fausto Alava-Moreno wrote on 01/14/11 at 16:30:56:


Sure, no problem! 10 moves in 20 days is fine as well.

Second game under way. Who is third?

Great! The first game is under way.
What about bragesjo, ArKheiN and TN? Are you ready as well?

bragesjo wrote on 01/07/11 at 16:59:47:


Correct. Although after 14.g4 I would play 14...a5. It's true that 14.g4 hxg5 15.h5 Rxc3 is an alternative, although I think that White might be a little better here after 16.Qxc3 Nxh5 17.Qe3.

Bye the way, I also don't have a strong computer at hand, just a laptop.

I am always excited to test a new engine, but before I can tell which one is strongest I have to let him search many wilds positions where I "definitely" know the right evaluation. At the moment Fire1.31 is the best I own for sure, I will tell you rather soon if I find Houdini better or not.

Nice, I have dl it. Since when this program exist and is it proved to be stronger than Fire1.31? Last question, how much hash should we put for infinite analysis? 128MB or what? I might be open for the challenge but I will tell you later if I do.

ArKheiN wrote on 01/07/11 at 12:24:14:


About 1) Yes, the games will be played simultaneously, per Email. At the end the games will be put into this thread for discussion.

About 2) It's the strongest currently available engine. See http://www.cruxis.com/chess/houdini.htm.

I challenge everyone to battle out the pawn sacrifice 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 8.Qd2 0-0 9.Bc4 Bd7 10.0-0-0 Rc8 11.Bb3 Ne5 12.h4 h5 13.Bg5 b5!? 

I know that 13...Rc5 supposed to be fine and prefered by probably all of you. Nevertheless I believe that 13...b5!? is no worse and I have done quite a lot of analysis to support this oppinion!

The details of the challenge are the following:

1) I play the Black side and you start with move 14.
2) We will only play 10 moves (20 plies). Move repetitions won't count.
3) We play at a rate of 2 days/move. Exceptions have to be agreed by both players.
4) At the end the position will be evaluated by Houdini 1.5 at depth 25. White wins if the evaluation is >+0.2. Black wins if the evaluation is <-0.2. Everything in between is counted as a draw.
5) The one who wins against me will get my analysis of the Burnett variation. If you lose, you may also give me some analysis of a dragon line, but that is optional.
6) Every person may play one game at most, but I'm ready to play against up to 10 players. First come, first serve.


To help you a little: The main lines are 14.Ndxb5 Qb6, 14.Ncxb5 Rc5 and 14.g4 a5, but you may also go for any sideline. 

I'm looking forward for exciting games!