I think I got it now guys!

After 1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 black should go 2. ... g6 3.Nd2 Nh6(!) with the idea Nf7 to hit the Bg5. After 4.e4 Nf7 5.Be3 fe4: 6.Ne4: d5 7.Ng5 Ng5: 8.Bg5: Bg7 9.Nf3 0-0 10.Be2 c5 11.c3 cd4: 12.cd4: Nc6 black is doing fine. Also the e3 + h4 setup, admittetly very dangerous after 3. ... Bg7 & Nf6, loses most of its sting with the knight on f7.

Markovich wrote on 01/12/11 at 21:07:00:

I totally agree with this, 2...g6 is also the only move which seems relatively stable. In the 2...h6 line white can even force the game into quite a pleasant endgame. However even in the 2...g6 I would feel pretty nervous as black as there are plans where white goes for early h4-h5 and f3, e4 which looks rather unpleasant and also just more simple plans of just developing like Nc3, Qd2, 0-0-0 which haven't been played to much but seems incredibly dangerous.

whatteaux wrote on 01/27/11 at 00:46:11:
 

I'd be willing to hazard "not very" as an optimistic answer to that one.

whatteaux wrote on 01/27/11 at 00:46:11:


Well, that's the thing about crap isn't it?  There'll always be less to learn than reliable openings.  Each to their own though.

NeverGiveUp wrote on 01/12/11 at 14:37:35:


Oh I beg to differ.  That line looks rather dull compared to

2. ... h6, 3. Bh4 g5, 4. e4 Rh7 GingerGM style.


In answer to your question what to do about 1. ... f5, 2. Bg5 ...

well, I've said before Dutch folk can happily get away with 1. ... e6 even if they don't play the French.  In my experience (I always play 1. d4 e6 as Black) I only get people transposing with 2. e4 about once every three years.

NeverGiveUp wrote on 01/14/11 at 10:20:40:


You are right in taking 4.e3! serious. So far the results are encouraging for White. 

I'm not sure that Black is really in trouble after 4... Nh6 5.Bxh6 Bxh6 6.h4 Bg7 7.h5 but I like White's position. In "Win with the Stonewall Dutch"  the Norwegians quote the game Wirig (2405) - Kuziola (2296), Pardubice 2005: 7...d5 8.f4 c5 9.c3 b6 10.Bb5+ Kf8? 11.Qf3 Ba6 12.Bxa6 Nxa6 13.g4 +/- and give 10...Bd7 as equal. IMO White is still a bit better after 11.Bxd7+ Qxd7 12.Qe2 and though 8.f4 is a good move he has other options, too (8.Nf3, 8.Qf3!?, 8.Ne2!?).

If I'll ever have to play against it, I'll probably try 4...h6 5.Bh4 d6 and then depending on White's answer, for instance: 6.Bd3 Nc6; 6.Ne2 g5 7.Bg3 Nf6; 6.Bc4 Nf6; 6.Ngf3 Nc6 7.Bc4 g5 8.Bg3 Nf6. 

Deleted my post; I had the wrong position, sorry.

NeverGiveUp: Hit the books and databases, already.  Crank up your engine.  You know, bear down.  Build your own theory.  But if you don't like Black after 2.Bg5 the only alternative for reaching the Dutch is to play 1...d6 or 1...e6 on move one and try to weasel into it.  This restricts the 1.e4 part of your repertoire, of course.  Being a French player and not a Leningrad player, Moskalenko thinks 1...e6 is hunky dory.

NeverGiveUp wrote on 01/13/11 at 11:08:34:


I don't think I've looked at 4.e3 at this exact point, but it's part of a common set-up. I suppose the idea is to have the option to play f4 in some lines. Though Londoners do tend to play their move orders a bit randomly, so it might just have been the first move he saw... 

Basically, it's the Dutch version of meeting the London, it's not easy to win as black against an opponent of similar strength and trying too hard may cost you the whole point. Some strong coffee and just play chess, is probably the best advice. And a look see in the database for inspiration can hardly hurt either.

Btw, I noticed in the database that if you intend to play Nf6 you might want to start with 4...h6!? 5.Bh4 Nf6 which seems an improvement on 4...Nf6 5.h4 h6 6.Bxf6 Bxf6 7.Bd3  - so if White wants this he should consider 4.h4 first.

Thanks for this.

I have Kindermann's book (it is excellent!) and he recommends 2. ... g6 3.Nd2 Bg7 4.e4 de4: 5.Ne4: d5, I don't really like that position in paricular because of "hole" on e5, and you're giving white what he wants by going along with their main line so they might come up with an improvement / home prep as in the 1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 g6 3.Nd2 Bg7 4.e3!? game where I got into big big trouble very quickly... any comments?

After 1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 c5 4.e4 Qb6 5.Nd2 I go 5. ... g5!? and after 6.Qh5+ Kd8 7.Bg5: Qb2: 8.Rb1 Qd4: 9.Be3 Qg7! things are not so clear since white's pawn structure is a mess as well and g2 is under attack. Play may continue 10.Qf5: d6 followed by Nc6 and e5, or 10.Bc5: Nf6! 11.Qh4 (11.Qf5:? d6) fe4:. I took this through Fritz and would say black is doing fine here. The variation does have quite some teeth more than appears at first sight. 

5.Nc3 is not very good again due to 5. ... g5 with point 6.Qh5+ Kd8 7.Bg5: Qb2: 8.Kd2!? cd4: 9.Nd5 d3! 10.Bf4 e5 11.Qf5: Bb4+ 12.Nb4: Qb4:+ 13.c3 Qb2: 14.Kd3: ef4: and black wins.

The best line for white is 5.ef5: where black should probably play the ugly looking line 5. ... Qb2: 6.Nd2 Qd4: 7.Ngf3 Qg4 8.Bd3 (8.Ne5!? Qh4: 9.Ng6 Qf6 10.Nh8: g5!) d5 9.h3 Qa4! followed by Nc6 and Nf6. White has a massive lead in development here, but his center has totally vanished what is a serious problem. Point of Qa4 is that if white goes c4 to attack black's center then black swaps Queens.

Fascinating stuff isn't it?

I have played 1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 g6 but got into serious trouble after 3.Nd2 Bg7 4.e3!? (rather than e4) followed by Bd3 - white gets a lot of pressure on the kings side.

A sample line in Fritz 10's openings book runs 1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 c5 4.e4 Qb6 5.Nd2 (not 5.Qh5+ g6, but Fritz 10's suggestion 5.Nc3 may also be good) 5...cxd4 6.exf5 Nf6 7.Bd3 Qxb2 8.Ngf3 Nc6 9.0-0 and I think White has more than a pawn's worth of compensation in view of the lead in development and Black's dreadful pawn structure.  There are some alternatives for both sides but the big problem with 2...h6 is that it creates a hole on g6, and combining it with 3...c5 leaves Black with long-term king safety issues- hence Markovich's suggestion of 2...g6 makes a lot of sense.

I think 2. ... h6 2.Bh4 c5!? 3.e4 Qb6 is just unsound, but I'll have to dig through some old notes to figure out why.  But look at the position like a beginner: Black is getting further and further behind in development, has only brought his Queen out, and "threatens" to make the cardinal mistake of capturing the Queen's Knight pawn with his Queen without finishing (or even starting!) his development.

Personally I've played 2...g6 in the few OTB games I've met 2.Bg5, which I think must be best, but can be a little annoying if you aren't a Leningrad player.