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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Best black repertoire book against 1.d4? (Read 34600 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Best black repertoire book against 1.d4?
Reply #34 - 01/24/11 at 14:41:14
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Yesterday, Seirawan was commenting on one of the games and stated that against 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.b3 c6 5.Bd3 Tal played 5...Bb4 (there may have been another move involved) against him and managed to bring into question his entire set-up. 

I know it's not really a Nimzo-English, but the ideas seem concomitant. This idea appeared in one of the games at Wijk aan Zee yesterday.
  
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Re: Best black repertoire book against 1.d4?
Reply #33 - 01/24/11 at 11:51:54
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Regarding the Neo-Gruenfeld/Anti-Gruenfeld or whatever you want to call it, I've had a chat with someone who should know and was told to check Kamsky's games. Using my Sherlock Holmes database it seems like this is the continuation:

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. Qb3 Nb6 6. d4 Bg7 7. Bf4 Be6 8.Qa3 Nc6 9. e3 a5 

Seems like the trick is to delay castling. Here White has 10.Be2 or 10.Bb5 but so far Black has been doing excellently against both. 
  
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Re: Best black repertoire book against 1.d4?
Reply #32 - 01/23/11 at 01:08:32
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The tarrasch defense! Active piece play right out of the opening adn no need to memorize tons of theory. What could be better for a non title player.
  
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Re: Best black repertoire book against 1.d4?
Reply #31 - 01/22/11 at 22:06:17
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 01/22/11 at 20:38:39:
Bpaulsen's post #23 was fascinating! I'm going to have to go back and study these NID/Grunfeld ideas against 1.c4. My first thought is to review some of Korchnoi's games as White.

Who are some of the other GMs who play the white side of these Bb4 and Grunfeld ideas in the English?


With the Nimzo-English, Kramnik is by far the choice topic of study. He has a significant number of games in it, and his successes/failures in the opening go to great lengths to shape how white should handle the entire variation (when he's not busy ducking into sidelines involving g3, but rather emphasis on his handling of e3 related variations - like when d4 is preferred, how to time b4, when you play Rae1 intending f4 in the near future, knowing where white is supposed to play based on black's set-up). An example of an instructive point is Kramnik-Anand, Frankfurt 1998 where b4 was too early, and black was able to equalize as a result.

In the Grunfeld - Eljanov, in particular his annotations to his games (ie: you can figure out his intended improvement on Eljanov-Shirov, Aerosvit 2008 by understanding the flaw with the move he chose in the game).

I also mentioned the Ivanchuk-Vachier Lagrave, Khanty Mansiysk 2010 game earlier, not because Ivanchuk is a frequent practicioner, but there is a lot to learn from that game. Vachier Lagrave, along with Svidler, is one of the biggest proponents of the Anglo-Grunfeld as black, so for him to get ground down with never being able to generate counterplay is significant.
  

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Re: Best black repertoire book against 1.d4?
Reply #30 - 01/22/11 at 20:38:39
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Bpaulsen's post #23 was fascinating! I'm going to have to go back and study these NID/Grunfeld ideas against 1.c4. My first thought is to review some of Korchnoi's games as White.

Who are some of the other GMs who play the white side of these Bb4 and Grunfeld ideas in the English?
  
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Re: Best black repertoire book against 1.d4?
Reply #29 - 01/21/11 at 23:39:07
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The Leningrad Dutch is a great choice.  You can play it against everything except 1.e4; offers winning chances; opponents will be less prepared against it, and it is fully sound at any level below GM (and even Nakamura plays it against the best of the best).

I would recommend Kindermann's book as brilliant
  
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Re: Best black repertoire book against 1.d4?
Reply #28 - 01/21/11 at 19:45:04
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kylemeister wrote on 01/20/11 at 17:41:12:
I sometimes wonder if I'm the only one who finds odd such phenomena as

1.  recommending detailed opening repertoire books to e.g. people who are perhaps 1400-1500 strength (or to people whose strength is unknown);
2.  apparently picking openings "out of the air," rather than, say, playing what appeals to one as an outgrowth of general chess study (such as going over annotated games involving various openings).


I actually agree.  I didn't expect to have someone say, "Here is a perfect repertoire!"  I expected people to toss out what they like, and I would look into it.  The Grunfeld looks sound, but it is rather commital.  Once black plays d5, playing a KID is out the window.  So my choice not to play the Grunfeld is influenced by the fact that I like some positions in KID that I have studied.  Probably a book like handing the anti-king's indian is appropriate.  The thing about an opening is that you learn where the pieces go in a typical position.   

People think of the English opening as positional, but I can guarantee that the white setup c4,d3,e4,Ne2,Bg2 has plenty of tactical venom.  Kosten's Dynamic English is a bit dated now, especially since the new GM repetoire volumes on the English, but it has actually held up fairly well, but I think having some ease with many of its positions is part of the reason I am so weak at d pawn openings; 1.c4 tend to inhibit 1...d5.  Sure black can play something similar to the Scandinavian/Center Counter, but it really does not present white immediate problems.

  
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Re: Best black repertoire book against 1.d4?
Reply #27 - 01/21/11 at 10:47:48
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Markovich wrote on 01/20/11 at 15:26:21:

Absent any more info about your chess skill, but assuming you're rated at least 2100, I recommend the Gruenfeld, which I regard as the most principled response to 1.d4.  There are two ways to play it.  Either you can play 1...Nf6 versus 1.d4, 1.c4 and 1.d4, and tough it out in a pseudo-Gruenfeld if White goes that way in one of the two latter cases; or you can add the Symmetrical English to your repertoire and answer only 1.d4 with 1...Nf6, and versus 1.Nf3 or 1.c4 play 1...c5.   The latter option is available only to Sicilian players, but it seems you are one.

Personally I would suggest the first route, since I'm not all that impressed with White's anti-Gruenfeld machinations after 1.c4 and 1.Nf3.  There are those here who feel differently, especially those who have White repertoires based on avoiding the Gruenfeld.


An IM in my club has basically this exact repertoire and does well with it. He doesnt seem overly-concerned with the various anti-Gruenfeld tries but just learns them as openings in their own right I think. My own view is that Black is doing reasonably OK in those lines.
  
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Re: Best black repertoire book against 1.d4?
Reply #26 - 01/21/11 at 02:13:02
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TN wrote on 01/20/11 at 10:52:14:
The immediate 6...b6 is less accurate because Bd3 and Qc2 will gain a tempo on the h7-pawn if the Black knight does not defend the h7-pawn.

That's what everybody says. But I don't see it after 6...b6 7.cxd5 exd5 8.Bd3 Bb7 9.0-0 (9.Qc2 Nbd7 10.0-0-0 Ne4 or c5) Nbd7 10.Qc2 a6. See some games of Visturs Meijers. The point is either maintaining a Knight on f6 or putting it on e4. After both the h7-pawn is not attacked and White does not win a tempo.
Not that I want to argue that this is as good as the real Tartakower/Makagonov/Bondarevsky 6...h6 7.Bh4 b6 8.cxd5 Nxd5.
  

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Re: Best black repertoire book against 1.d4?
Reply #25 - 01/20/11 at 22:35:00
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kylemeister wrote on 01/20/11 at 17:41:12:
I sometimes wonder if I'm the only one who finds odd such phenomena as

1.  recommending detailed opening repertoire books to e.g. people who are perhaps 1400-1500 strength (or to people whose strength is unknown);
2.  apparently picking openings "out of the air," rather than, say, playing what appeals to one as an outgrowth of general chess study (such as going over annotated games involving various openings).


I'm 100% with you, Kyle.
  
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Re: Best black repertoire book against 1.d4?
Reply #24 - 01/20/11 at 17:41:12
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I sometimes wonder if I'm the only one who finds odd such phenomena as

1.  recommending detailed opening repertoire books to e.g. people who are perhaps 1400-1500 strength (or to people whose strength is unknown);
2.  apparently picking openings "out of the air," rather than, say, playing what appeals to one as an outgrowth of general chess study (such as going over annotated games involving various openings).
  
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Re: Best black repertoire book against 1.d4?
Reply #23 - 01/20/11 at 16:51:01
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Markovich wrote on 01/20/11 at 15:26:21:
Personally I would suggest the first route, since I'm not all that impressed with White's anti-Gruenfeld machinations after 1.c4 and 1.Nf3.  There are those here who feel differently, especially those who have White repertoires based on avoiding the Gruenfeld.


This reminds me of something I made a mistake with a long time ago as a black Nimzo-Indian player when faced with the prospect of using the Nimzo-English (1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4). The positions seemed familiar enough, solid enough, and typical enough so I figured they must be okay just like the standard Nimzo-Indian equivalent. I even collected a bunch of draws and no losses against FMs OTB in it, which reinforced my perception at the time...

And I was definitely, without doubt, completely and utterly wrong in my appraisal of the positions.

The issue was one of understanding - not being able to understand, or respect why it is especially dangerous until I understood what is/isn't desirable in the 1. d4 equivalents, and why what works there doesn't work against the 1. c4 related approaches if white handles the position correctly. The fact my opponents didn't understand how to correctly handle the white pieces only perpetuated the problem until I got to face a GM in it that could exploit it.

The Nimzo-English and Anglo-Grunfeld share this issue. Everything seems so similar, so what white is doing doesn't look impressive initially. At first you're wondering why they'd bother avoiding transposition to the standard 1. d4 lines, or at least that's the impression I had at the time I was going through this years ago.

Until I got stuck in middlegames against higher quality play where you have none of the standard counterplay you're supposed to have in those openings, and you get ground down. It was like a, "Eureka!" moment when I realized the problem with the middlegames wasn't the way I was handling them, but the fact they simply weren't good enough positions in the first place.

That's the issue with the NID/Grunfeld tries against the English - the positions are completely solid, but lack any of the counterplay typical to those openings. 

A very recent example of this lack of counterplay issue was the Ivanchuk-Vachier Lagrave, Khanty Mansiysk 2010 game. White's set-up doesn't appear like it's trying for much, but black ends up with no counterplay like he would have in Grunfeld equivalents.

Quote:
If however you're not rated at least 2100 or so, I would recommend instead the Tarrasch, which can be played equally well against 1.d4, 1.Nf3 or 1.c4 (play 1..e6 in the latter case).


With the new Tarrasch repertoire book around the corner it'd be a good call, and maybe the analysis/evaluations will hold up regardless of rating. It could be a good choice regardless of thread starter's rating, especially since it's a catch-all (the other catch-all being the KID, but the KID is way more theoretical).
  

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Re: Best black repertoire book against 1.d4?
Reply #22 - 01/20/11 at 16:37:25
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Keano wrote on 01/20/11 at 09:19:06:

Used to be commonly played long ago but along came the young Kasparov against Beliavsky and made the setup look dubious. Mind you it took Kasparov, and he made a lot of stuff look dubious.


I thought of the Kasparov-Beliavsky game too, but I think that the general view about the suboptimality of ...ed in such positions goes back way before that; I think of some games by people like Rubinstein and Pillsbury.  In the case of 8. cd (in the modern Tartakower move order), 8...Nxd5 was given as best by Fine in the 1940s, and in the '60s and '70s figured in such games as Bertok-Fischer, Fischer-Spassky and Timman-Geller. 
  
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Re: Best black repertoire book against 1.d4?
Reply #21 - 01/20/11 at 15:26:21
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Jay wrote on 01/19/11 at 05:16:15:
I know this is probably opening a can of worms, but I really have no real repertoire against it.  I tend to play the sicilian against 1.e4 and play 1.c4 as white, but my understanding of 1.d4 seems a bit low.

Any suggestions are appreciated.


Absent any more info about your chess skill, but assuming you're rated at least 2100, I recommend the Gruenfeld, which I regard as the most principled response to 1.d4.  There are two ways to play it.  Either you can play 1...Nf6 versus 1.d4, 1.c4 and 1.d4, and tough it out in a pseudo-Gruenfeld if White goes that way in one of the two latter cases; or you can add the Symmetrical English to your repertoire and answer only 1.d4 with 1...Nf6, and versus 1.Nf3 or 1.c4 play 1...c5.   The latter option is available only to Sicilian players, but it seems you are one.

Personally I would suggest the first route, since I'm not all that impressed with White's anti-Gruenfeld machinations after 1.c4 and 1.Nf3.  There are those here who feel differently, especially those who have White repertoires based on avoiding the Gruenfeld.

If however you're not rated at least 2100 or so, I would recommend instead the Tarrasch, which can be played equally well against 1.d4, 1.Nf3 or 1.c4 (play 1..e6 in the latter case).

  

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Re: Best black repertoire book against 1.d4?
Reply #20 - 01/20/11 at 10:52:14
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The immediate 6...b6 is less accurate because Bd3 and Qc2 will gain a tempo on the h7-pawn if the Black knight does not defend the h7-pawn. This is a more important factor than the weakening of the f5 and g6 squares. Delaying ...h6 also gives White the extra option of Bf4, which can be useful in some variations. 

There's also 8...Nh5 against the QGD Exchange, which is slightly better for White but rock solid, and Van der Sterren had some good wins from the Black side.
  

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