ChessPub Forum - Black plays exd4 in Kid

(UTC)

ChessPub Forum › Chess Publishing Openings › King's Indian › Black plays exd4 in Kid

(Moderators: trw, Bibs)

‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›

Page Index Toggle

Pages: 1

Topic Tools

Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies)

Black plays exd4 in Kid (Read 12404 times)

BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: Black plays exd4 in Kid Reply #14 - 03/27/11 at 01:22:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	Khalifman is still relevant for the white perspective on these lines, probably the best one possible. My personal feelings about 7. 0-0 exd4 are that white's edge is small, black's drawing chances significant. It's a two result game - white will win, or the game will end in a draw. If white is going to win he needs very high level technique. Luckily for us mortals, there's plenty of good examples (ie: Jakovenko-Volokitin, Foros Aerosvit 2008) to learn from.

	2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE. FIDE based on just 27 games.
	YIM AIM IP Logged

trw YaBB Moderator Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1414 Joined: 05/06/08 Gender:	Re: Black plays exd4 in Kid Reply #13 - 03/26/11 at 19:15:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	I thought someone had reprinted Pawn Power in Algebraic though I can't seem to find it now... As per the line, are we talking about: 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 0-0 6. Be2 e5 7. 0-0 exd4 If thats the line, I have found it extremely hard to find any sort of advantage for white. Black's setup is quite solid! The opposite of what you generally expect from a KID. Still page 105 of Krzysztof Panczyk and Jacek Ilczuk's the Classical King's Indian Uncovered (Everyman 2009) has quite a bit on this line continuing with 8. Nxd4 (mainline given as 8.... Re8 9. f3 then splinters to discuss 9... Nh6, c6, Nc6) they also discuss 8... c6 8... Nbd7 and 8... Nc6!? where they continue with the recommendation of 9. Be3 Re8 10. f3 transposing to the mainline (though 9. Nxc6 and 10. Nxc6 are both discussed). however, I think the authors missed something critical in 8. Nxd4 Nc6!? (is this called the Glek?) 9. Be3 Nxd4!? (they make no mention of this move, does anyone know of a KID book that does?). As mentioned above, now I have found nothing for white in this line that constitutes an advantage. Two correspondence games both concluding in draws, I have continued 10. Bxd4 A) 10... Re8 B) 10... b6 A) 11. f3 (11. Qd3!?) b6 12. Qd2 Nd7 13. Rae1 (Novelty at the time game was played) (Previous try was 13. Rad1 Bb7 14. Bxg7 Kxg7 15. Nd5 (15. f4N!? with the idea of Bf3 as in the stem game) 15... a50-1 Nenciulescu, S (2166)-Mathe, I (2410)/ICCF 2007 but I analyzed other possibilities in 13. Bxg7 13. Nd5 13. b4) Bxd4+ 14. Qxd4 Bb7 15. f4 Qe7 16. Bf3 Rad8 17. a3 c6 18. b4 Qe6 (18... h6!?) where I thought I had a small plus due to space and piece mobility but was unable to make anything of it. The game ended in a draw about 15 moves later. B) 11. f4N (previous was 11. f3 a5 1/2-1/2 Pilipchuk, A-Tikhobaev, A/ICCF 2009) (I now think 11. Qd2 might be better though its untested- at least I haven't found any games on it). 11... Re8 12. Bf3 Rb8 13. Qd3 c5 14. Bf2 Ng4 15. Nb5 I thought I had a small plus but I might be wrong... (15. Bg3 is sadly not good enough I think with 15... h5! 16. h3 h4 17. Bxg4 Bxg4 18. Bf2=) at any rate things started to get very complicated here with 15... Bxb2 16. Bxg4 Bxg4 17. Rae1 Bg7 (17... Bf6!?) where I had enough compensation for the pawn but not more. Game ended in a draw 15 moves later. Anyways, this system was so solid for black in these two games that I might try it out for black in a few games I would love any suggestions to improvements on the above. I am extremely glad someone started a thread on this line as I've been analyzing it to no progress for quite some time.


	IP Logged

Jay Full Member Offline Posts: 212 Location: USA Joined: 04/18/09 Gender:	Re: Black plays exd4 in Kid Reply #12 - 03/17/11 at 15:58:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	Alias wrote on 03/17/11 at 15:04:10: Stigma wrote on 03/15/11 at 20:07:13: Paddy wrote on 03/04/11 at 12:16:28: The term Boleslavsky Wall was used, possibly for the first time, in Hans Kmoch's classic book "Die Kunst der Bauernfuhrung" (1956). In 1959 Kmoch issued an English "treatment" (rather than translation) entitled "Pawn Power in Chess". For anyone who can read German, the original might be preferable, since it looks and feels like a modern chess book and it is in algebraic notation. The English version, created with the help of Walter Meiden (who also collaborated on some books with Euwe) is in descriptive notation and is also a very instructive read, but you have to get to grips with a whole new terminology devised by the author(s), e.g. ram, telestop, span, quart, leucopenia, etc. That's great news actually. I have the english book (Dover, descriptive notation) and though there's obviously lots of great chess insight there, the weird terminology (never used before or again) is really irritating. When they mean, for example, "weaknesses on one color" why not just say that instead of using a fancy word just to look smart?! And why speak of "twins" when "doubled pawns" is the universally accepted term? I think they even claimed to save lots of text space this way, but who cares if it's 50 pages shorter than it could have been when it's so annoying to read? It would be great if someone made an algebraic edition in English, and while they're at it do a fresh translation from the German, with normal chess language! In the meantime, I might try to get hold of the German version. There is already an algebraic edition in english. See eg http://chesscompany.com/chesscompany/product_name=Pawn+Power+in+Chess+(Algebraic... I actually owned Pawn Power In Chess at one point in time. I never actually made it through it largely owing to the older notation. I have often wished that someone would reprint the work in algebraic. It would have to be because I am not learning German! Much of Pawn Power was still accessible sans notation such as rams and levers (Was stops and telestops in it too?), but the terminology confused as much as it clarified in my opinion. Even so, I haven't seen the same coverage in other works, so I would probably pick it up if someone had the verve to update it and alter the non-standard verbage.


	IP Logged

Alias God Member Offline Posts: 1512 Location: East of the river Svartån Joined: 11/19/04	Re: Black plays exd4 in Kid Reply #11 - 03/17/11 at 15:04:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	Stigma wrote on 03/15/11 at 20:07:13: Paddy wrote on 03/04/11 at 12:16:28: The term Boleslavsky Wall was used, possibly for the first time, in Hans Kmoch's classic book "Die Kunst der Bauernfuhrung" (1956). In 1959 Kmoch issued an English "treatment" (rather than translation) entitled "Pawn Power in Chess". For anyone who can read German, the original might be preferable, since it looks and feels like a modern chess book and it is in algebraic notation. The English version, created with the help of Walter Meiden (who also collaborated on some books with Euwe) is in descriptive notation and is also a very instructive read, but you have to get to grips with a whole new terminology devised by the author(s), e.g. ram, telestop, span, quart, leucopenia, etc. That's great news actually. I have the english book (Dover, descriptive notation) and though there's obviously lots of great chess insight there, the weird terminology (never used before or again) is really irritating. When they mean, for example, "weaknesses on one color" why not just say that instead of using a fancy word just to look smart?! And why speak of "twins" when "doubled pawns" is the universally accepted term? I think they even claimed to save lots of text space this way, but who cares if it's 50 pages shorter than it could have been when it's so annoying to read? It would be great if someone made an algebraic edition in English, and while they're at it do a fresh translation from the German, with normal chess language! In the meantime, I might try to get hold of the German version. There is already an algebraic edition in english. See eg http://chesscompany.com/chesscompany/product_name=Pawn+Power+in+Chess+(Algebraic...

	Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
	IP Logged

kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4989 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: Black plays exd4 in Kid Reply #10 - 03/17/11 at 03:37:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	...Re8 is standardly inserted before ...Nc6, but yeah. ...ed followed by ...Re8 and ...c6 had been played there before Glek came along (and the two are commonly regarded as about equally good).


	IP Logged

ErictheRed God Member Offline USCF National Master Posts: 2534 Location: USA Joined: 10/02/05	Re: Black plays exd4 in Kid Reply #9 - 03/17/11 at 02:10:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	I think Glek's name is only attached to the line 7...exd4 8.Nxd4 Nc6!?


	IP Logged

RdC God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 868 Joined: 05/17/08	Re: Black plays exd4 in Kid Reply #8 - 03/17/11 at 01:22:14	Post Tools	Print Post
	I thought the line that runs 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 g6 3 Nc3 Bg7 4 e4 d6 5 Nf3 O-O 6 Be2 e5 7 0-0 exd4 was attributed to Glek


	IP Logged

Stigma God Member Offline There is a crack in everything. Posts: 3277 Joined: 11/07/06 Gender:	Re: Black plays exd4 in Kid Reply #7 - 03/15/11 at 20:07:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	Paddy wrote on 03/04/11 at 12:16:28: The term Boleslavsky Wall was used, possibly for the first time, in Hans Kmoch's classic book "Die Kunst der Bauernfuhrung" (1956). In 1959 Kmoch issued an English "treatment" (rather than translation) entitled "Pawn Power in Chess". For anyone who can read German, the original might be preferable, since it looks and feels like a modern chess book and it is in algebraic notation. The English version, created with the help of Walter Meiden (who also collaborated on some books with Euwe) is in descriptive notation and is also a very instructive read, but you have to get to grips with a whole new terminology devised by the author(s), e.g. ram, telestop, span, quart, leucopenia, etc. That's great news actually. I have the english book (Dover, descriptive notation) and though there's obviously lots of great chess insight there, the weird terminology (never used before or again) is really irritating. When they mean, for example, "weaknesses on one color" why not just say that instead of using a fancy word just to look smart?! And why speak of "twins" when "doubled pawns" is the universally accepted term? I think they even claimed to save lots of text space this way, but who cares if it's 50 pages shorter than it could have been when it's so annoying to read? It would be great if someone made an algebraic edition in English, and while they're at it do a fresh translation from the German, with normal chess language! In the meantime, I might try to get hold of the German version.

	Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
	IP Logged

Paddy God Member Offline The truth will out! Posts: 966 Location: Manchester Joined: 01/10/03 Gender:	Re: Black plays exd4 in Kid Reply #6 - 03/04/11 at 12:16:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	Stigma wrote on 03/03/11 at 23:01:49: raja wrote on 03/03/11 at 15:08:18: Thanks for the useful information guys... i just referred to Andrew soltis pawn structure chess and he calls this structure as "The Boleslavsky wall" I also saw Marco's book but he does not explain exd4 he starts straightly from move 9.b4 That makes sense; Boleslavsky was one of the earliest champions of the King's Indian along with Bronstein. Markos does have a little bit on ...exd4: Look in chapter 19, line E) near the end of the book. Only a copule of pages; a quick repertoire suggestion for White. Khalifman has much more depth. The term Boleslavsky Wall was used, possibly for the first time, in Hans Kmoch's classic book "Die Kunst der Bauernfuhrung" (1956). In 1959 Kmoch issued an English "treatment" (rather than translation) entitled "Pawn Power in Chess". For anyone who can read German, the original might be preferable, since it looks and feels like a modern chess book and it is in algebraic notation. The English version, created with the help of Walter Meiden (who also collaborated on some books with Euwe) is in descriptive notation and is also a very instructive read, but you have to get to grips with a whole new terminology devised by the author(s), e.g. ram, telestop, span, quart, leucopenia, etc.


	IP Logged

raja Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 125 Location: India Joined: 11/15/10 Gender:	Re: Black plays exd4 in Kid Reply #5 - 03/04/11 at 01:46:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thanks stigma you people seem to be living encyclopedia of chess theory.


	IP Logged

Stigma God Member Offline There is a crack in everything. Posts: 3277 Joined: 11/07/06 Gender:	Re: Black plays exd4 in Kid Reply #4 - 03/03/11 at 23:01:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	raja wrote on 03/03/11 at 15:08:18: Thanks for the useful information guys... i just referred to Andrew soltis pawn structure chess and he calls this structure as "The Boleslavsky wall" I also saw Marco's book but he does not explain exd4 he starts straightly from move 9.b4 That makes sense; Boleslavsky was one of the earliest champions of the King's Indian along with Bronstein. Markos does have a little bit on ...exd4: Look in chapter 19, line E) near the end of the book. Only a copule of pages; a quick repertoire suggestion for White. Khalifman has much more depth.

	Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
	IP Logged

raja Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 125 Location: India Joined: 11/15/10 Gender:	Re: Black plays exd4 in Kid Reply #3 - 03/03/11 at 15:08:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thanks for the useful information guys... i just referred to Andrew soltis pawn structure chess and he calls this structure as "The Boleslavsky wall" I also saw Marco's book but he does not explain exd4 he starts straightly from move 9.b4


	IP Logged

Stigma God Member Offline There is a crack in everything. Posts: 3277 Joined: 11/07/06 Gender:	Re: exd4 in Kid Reply #2 - 03/03/11 at 14:17:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	This is one of the oldest ways of treating the King's Indian. Recently it's most popular against the Fianchetto, but also sometimes played against the Classical, Gligoric, and Sämisch. I don't know if the structure has a specific name, but there are a number of games with it in "Bronstein on the King's Indian" since Bronstein played many fine games with it, mostly against the Fianchetto and the Sämisch. That book is also organized by themes to some extent. For the Classical and Gligoric lines, a more theoretical source is the two-volume standard work by Nunn & Burgess. "The New Classical King's Indian" has 30 pages on 7.0-0 exd4 and "The Main Line King's Indian" has 8 pages on 7.Be3 exd4. But those Nunn/Burgess books are from 1996-97, so for deep study some more recent sources like ChessPublishing and/or a Mega Database would be useful. There is also some coverage in Golubev's "Understanding the King's Indian", and from White's perspective in the works by Khalifman ("Opening According to Kramnik") and Markos ("Beat the KID"). Against the Fianchetto, a very sharp version of this plan was Gallagher's choice in "Play the King's Indian" (also covered by Golubev), but it may be unsound. And of course all the books written for White on the Fianchetto (i.e. Avrukh) and the Sämisch (i.e. Ward) have quite a bit on lines with ...e5 and a later ...exd4.

	Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
	IP Logged

gramsci Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 210 Joined: 11/11/09	Re: exd4 in Kid Reply #1 - 03/03/11 at 14:12:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	In "Mastering the King's Indian Defense" by Bellin & Ponzetto, it's called the Orthodox Centre


	IP Logged

raja Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 125 Location: India Joined: 11/15/10 Gender:	Black plays exd4 in Kid 03/03/11 at 13:59:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hello friends, we all know that if white has pawns on e4 and c4 and black's c pawn is exchanged for white's d pawn then we call it Marcrozy bind where white enjoys slight plus but what if white's d pawn is exchanged for black's e pawn instead of c pawn......what is this structure called....and how to play this structure.......is there any book on this subject? this usually happens in kings indian variation....help is appreciated....


	IP Logged

Page Index Toggle

Pages: 1

Topic Tools

‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›

Bookmarks:

del.icio.us

Digg

Google

Google+

reddit

StumbleUpon

Yahoo

« Board Index ‹ Board Top

Top

ChessPub Forum » Powered by YaBB 2.6.12!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2026. All Rights Reserved.

Valid XHTML

Valid CSS

Powered by Perl

Source Forge