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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) French cheating at Olympiad (Read 10089 times)
Mortal Games
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Re: French cheating at Olympiad
Reply #72 - 04/01/11 at 11:11:13
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TalJechin - Well, is chess still an art? When even GMs and World-championship participants are consulting computers before the games (and apparently some also during...) it seems that the only thing that keeps the engines off places 1-100 on the Elolist is that they're not human. Musicians and artists still create something while chess is increasingly turning into a memory game.

Chinese Go may also be solvable by computers eventually, but here the grandmasters haven't sold out and assisted the programmers - or at least not as much as in chess.


I agree that chess is becoming more and more a memory game, but I was refering myself to the initial appeal to people, who in general like arts. Usually, people who like arts (music, painting etc) or math likes chess. The reason someone starts to like chess is in my view not because it is a memory contest but more about beautiful combinations etc. 

From what I know about Go, it is much more complex for a computer to solve it because there is no diferent piece values like in chess and the strategy part is more abstract to the machines "understanding" and maybe the players not assisting programmers plays a certain role too, but the possible variations or moves are much more higher than chess. 

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MNb - What about not allowing irregular visitors to the playing hall at all? Didn't we have demonstration boards in the past? It used to be charming, all those spectators so close to the top-GM's, but we live in the 21st Century now.
It still will be a problem for lesser tournaments of course.


Yes, that could be a possibility. Chess world needs to think about this carefully. It could be a bit cold to see an empty atmosphere and could exist logistic problems to certain tournaments. The Cube in glass of Bilbao comes to mind and a diferent solution to lesser tournaments.

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Or maybe it's because there are lots of Chinese, who averagely aren't any less intelligent than other people.


The number is indeed important to find quality and they aren´t less intelligent too. Several tests about intelligence of white, black and chinese populations showed that all people could achieve the same levels but the important point that makes the diference is the cultural background and certain populations lost themselves wasting time for example in gangs culture in their youth. This is a controversial subject but tests in several universities showed that chinese achieve better results in studies and that is because of better discipline and reading a lot since their youth. 

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Antillian - Soon all chess players will have to bring urinals to avoid having to go the bathroom.
 

In tennis whenever a player goes to toillet, an arbiter always go with him. Maybe chess needs to put some guy in the toillet to control.
It will have two purposes: Could end up scandals like toillet World Championship too... Grin
    
  

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TalJechin
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Re: French cheating at Olympiad
Reply #71 - 03/31/11 at 13:31:47
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The risk is that too strict rules would 'throw out the baby with the bathwater' - especially on non-professional levels of competition you can't have even more rules like the cell-phone beeps = you lose. It's a social game too and without that aspect the club death would only accelerate.

For bigger/stronger tournaments, a simple remedy would be that the organisers refrain from inviting players (or refuse them to enter) with a bad/questionable reputation. After all, most of the few players causing trouble (at least in my experience from local tournaments) are already known for that beforehand. And anyone wanting to join that infamous group should understand that it will hurt his/her chances to make a living from the game in the long term. And this would not only strike against computer cheating, but also unsportsmanlike conduct and such.

Far from a perfect solution of course, but imo it's way better than ruining the playing conditions for the very large majority that wouldn't cheat anyway...
  
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Antillian
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Re: French cheating at Olympiad
Reply #70 - 03/31/11 at 12:26:15
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Soon all chess players will have to bring urinals to avoid having to go the bathroom.  Grin
  

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GMTonyKosten
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Re: French cheating at Olympiad
Reply #69 - 03/31/11 at 12:08:55
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If I remember correctly, many, many years ago they had to stop Bridge players communicating verbally so introduced little boards where you point to your bid rather than say it, and at top level events they had screens between the players as there were some scandals in the 50s involving players holding their hands in odd positions to give signals to their partners.
Maybe chess will soon be forced to go down a similar road, with more and more extreme measures to stop cheating? Sad
  
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buddho
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Re: French cheating at Olympiad
Reply #68 - 03/31/11 at 11:21:12
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A limit to the number of times a player can leave the playing hall.
  
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Dink Heckler
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Re: French cheating at Olympiad
Reply #67 - 03/31/11 at 10:37:01
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It's clear that trust is corroding fast...FIDE have to get ahead of the curve, but based on their track record, who would bet on that?!
  

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Re: French cheating at Olympiad
Reply #66 - 03/31/11 at 07:42:44
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MNb wrote on 03/30/11 at 23:29:54:
Mortal Games wrote on 03/30/11 at 18:36:01:
Maybe, thats why China is becoming the number one in a lot of areas.

Or maybe it's because there are lots of Chinese, who averagely aren't any less intelligent than other people.


I foundamentally agree with MNb. Go games are still (sometimes) played with long time controls and adjournements simply because computers are not yet  strong enough to solve the position overnight. The comparison with chess is not very fitting.
I have also read many go pros complaining about time controls becoming shorter and shorter, so in fact go is following the same path toward fast play.

Off-topic: i think that crude number is the main but not the only factor contributing to china upsurge in strenght in all sports.
For example i have read that talented young go players under 25 are encouraged to live toghether in a sort of college. This means having nearly a third of world top-50 players living toghether, playing each other every day and sharing ideas. This is to say that a good organization plays a role too.

  
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MNb
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Re: French cheating at Olympiad
Reply #65 - 03/30/11 at 23:29:54
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Mortal Games wrote on 03/30/11 at 18:36:01:
Maybe, thats why China is becoming the number one in a lot of areas.

Or maybe it's because there are lots of Chinese, who averagely aren't any less intelligent than other people.

Mortal Games wrote on 03/30/11 at 21:09:06:
Frederic Friedel proposal is interesting:

What about not allowing irregular visitors to the playing hall at all? Didn't we have demonstration boards in the past? It used to be charming, all those spectators so close to the top-GM's, but we live in the 21st Century now.
It still will be a problem for lesser tournaments of course.

TalJechin wrote on 03/30/11 at 21:21:03:
Chinese Go may also be solvable by computers eventually, but here the grandmasters haven't sold out and assisted the programmers - or at least not as much as in chess.


I have written it before and I repeat it - classical chess with long time controls will come to an end within a few decades. Cheating possibilities only will accelerate the process. The future is to tournaments like Amber. I don't the argument "I want high level games" either. Those games played at Amber, are they really of a lower level than topgames of say 50 years ago?
  

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Re: French cheating at Olympiad
Reply #64 - 03/30/11 at 22:58:28
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I think Frederic Friedel has made some interesting points on this matter. He's right, of course.

Checking for electronic devices is reasonable too. But please think about two facts. If Feller was cheating, he wasn't carrying such devices anyway, as he seemed to have received the information from Hauchard. Well, then the team captain should not have a phone either, whether this is practical or not.

Anyway, if you think about a mass event like the chess olympiad, this means you have to check roundabout 1500 people for electronic devices within an hour when entering the playing hall. Seems to me we'd need half as much staff for this as an airport needs for these checks...
  
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TN
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Re: French cheating at Olympiad
Reply #63 - 03/30/11 at 22:45:57
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TN wrote on 03/25/11 at 07:32:01:
If a 15-minute time delay on the live game transmission (if the games are being broadcast) is used in conjunction with the prohibition of the usage of electronic devices in the playing venue is used in every FIDE-rated tournament, then I think the chances of cheaters being caught will be greatly increased. 

Using metal detectors before the event could also work well, combined with the above suggestion.


It seems that the top players want this suggestion implemented as well.  Wink
  

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Re: French cheating at Olympiad
Reply #62 - 03/30/11 at 21:47:36
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And so it begins as I predicted earlier!?

Straight from the Chessbase Site.

Cheating in chess: the problem won't go away 
30.03.2011 – As you know the recent suspicion of organized cheating during a Chess Olympiad has led to three French players being suspended. One is currently playing in the European Individual Championship, where his colleagues have published an open letter demanding additional security. For years we have been proposing a remedy for this very serious problem. It needs to be implemented now.

Why was Feller allowed to play in the European Championship is beyond me.
 
Topper Sad
  

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TalJechin
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Re: French cheating at Olympiad
Reply #61 - 03/30/11 at 21:21:03
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Mortal Games wrote on 03/30/11 at 18:36:01:
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OTB tournament will probably become more and more of blitz and speed-chess - and for serious top tournaments it would probably be more entertaining and easier to interest TV, if the participants played best of say 10-15 blitz games, as in snooker. 

Why would one game for 6-8 hours still be better nowadays than 15 blitz games in 3-4 hours? There are already "long" games being played where one side only uses a few minutes for the whole game...


I think it is a great myth for chess to always think about TV like a target or the great age of gold, because chess is an art like painting or music and it is not because there will be a hundred hours a week of painting or music for people to lear or for better understanding, that we will see more painters or musicians. Chess will always appeal only to some and nothing to others. Why bother with TV if chess have the net? The future is on the net! I think this crazy idea of FIDE about more and more quick games and to cut slow games is killing chess from some time ago. This is like fast food and that will never replace good food like in music, classical will always be the great music. On the contrary, there are today certain movements that return to the concept of slow food, slow times. Why live fast? To die fast? In China Go tournaments and games take several hours and it is very popular with millions of followers on TV. Maybe, thats why China is becoming the number one in a lot of areas.      


Well, is chess still an art? When even GMs and World-championship participants are consulting computers before the games (and apparently some also during...) it seems that the only thing that keeps the engines off places 1-100 on the Elolist is that they're not human. Musicians and artists still create something while chess is increasingly turning into a memory game.

Chinese Go may also be solvable by computers eventually, but here the grandmasters haven't sold out and assisted the programmers - or at least not as much as in chess.
  
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Mortal Games
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Re: French cheating at Olympiad
Reply #60 - 03/30/11 at 21:09:06
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Frederic Friedel proposal is interesting:

1.No kind of electronic devices are allowed to enter the playing hall, and offenders are heavily penalising.

2.Make it a breach of etiquette for spectators to enter and leave the playing hall repeatedly. Anyone who leaves the hall is not allowed to go to the press or other communications rooms immediately, or to inform other persons of what has just been played.

3.The playing hall should be treated as a VIP area, where people go to watch the games for a certain period, and not jump in and out dozens of times during a game. It should have the atmosphere of a theatre or movie palace where this is also not possible.

4.The visitors in the playing hall can be treated to very special GM commentary using infra-red earphones. If the same commentary needs to be made available to people outside the playing hall this is done using a delay-loop device that is synchronised with the move transmission.

  

It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses.  It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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Mortal Games
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Re: French cheating at Olympiad
Reply #59 - 03/30/11 at 18:36:01
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OTB tournament will probably become more and more of blitz and speed-chess - and for serious top tournaments it would probably be more entertaining and easier to interest TV, if the participants played best of say 10-15 blitz games, as in snooker. 

Why would one game for 6-8 hours still be better nowadays than 15 blitz games in 3-4 hours? There are already "long" games being played where one side only uses a few minutes for the whole game...


I think it is a great myth for chess to always think about TV like a target or the great age of gold, because chess is an art like painting or music and it is not because there will be a hundred hours a week of painting or music for people to lear or for better understanding, that we will see more painters or musicians. Chess will always appeal only to some and nothing to others. Why bother with TV if chess have the net? The future is on the net! I think this crazy idea of FIDE about more and more quick games and to cut slow games is killing chess from some time ago. This is like fast food and that will never replace good food like in music, classical will always be the great music. On the contrary, there are today certain movements that return to the concept of slow food, slow times. Why live fast? To die fast? In China Go tournaments and games take several hours and it is very popular with millions of followers on TV. Maybe, thats why China is becoming the number one in a lot of areas.
  

It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses.  It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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Re: French cheating at Olympiad
Reply #58 - 03/30/11 at 16:38:27
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Well, for one thing I enjoy watching one long good game of chess instead of a bunch of error-prone games. And I certainly like to play a game of chess where I have time to think more than playing a bunch of blitz games
  

There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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