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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C58: Two Knights 8. Bd3 (Read 24410 times)
sloughter
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Re: Two Knights 8. Bd3
Reply #20 - 03/30/11 at 23:14:55
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Roger Williamson wrote on 03/30/11 at 13:59:47:
Yes, White has winning chances.  It seems rather easy to play for White, and it's difficult to see how Black proceeds:  11... Bd6 12. Re1 I don't know, what is Black's best line?  As, recently, every strong player as Black has rejected the capture on d3 in favour of 10... Bd6 it doesn't look like they consider it anything other than a lemon either.  Optically speaking, I wouldn't want it.  It's not even as if Black has a lead in development.  Enlighten me.

I guess I just looked at the pawn structure and the Bishop pair and it looks like long-term compensation. Here are some random moves by Fritz 12. If you look at its evaluation it really "likes" White's position. However, it just peters out into a dead draw. Clearly improvements for both sides, but I tend to believe that this is an excellent demonstration of long-term compensation

4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5ch c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Bd3 Nd5 9.Nf3 Nf4 10.O-O Nxd3 11.cxd3 Bd6 12.Nc3 O-O 13.Ne4 Bc7 14.Qc2 f5 15.Nc5 Qd5 16.b4 Nb7 17.Bb2 Nxc5 18.Qxc5 e4 19.Qd4 Rf7 20.dxe4 fxe4 21.Ne5 Re7 22.Qxd5ch (Now its equal in my opinion) cxd5 23.Nc6 Re6 24.Rfc1 Bf4 25.Rc5 Bxd2 26.Rxd5 e3 27.Rd8ch Kf7 28.Ne5ch Ke7 29.Rd5 exf2ch 30.Kxf2 Bxb4 31.Rc1 Bd6 32.Nc6ch Ke8 33.Nd4 Rg6 34.g3 Bg4 35.Nb5 Rd8 36.Bd4 a6 37.Nxd6ch Rgxd6 38.Rxd6 Rxd6 & of course its a dead draw.
  
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Roger Williamson
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Re: Two Knights 8. Bd3
Reply #19 - 03/30/11 at 13:59:47
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Yes, White has winning chances.  It seems rather easy to play for White, and it's difficult to see how Black proceeds:  11... Bd6 12. Re1 I don't know, what is Black's best line?  As, recently, every strong player as Black has rejected the capture on d3 in favour of 10... Bd6 it doesn't look like they consider it anything other than a lemon either.  Optically speaking, I wouldn't want it.  It's not even as if Black has a lead in development.  Enlighten me.
  
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Re: Two Knights 8. Bd3
Reply #18 - 03/30/11 at 12:17:03
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Post to the subject or not at all, people.  This is not a venue for anyone's expression of dislike for someone else.
  
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sloughter
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Re: Two Knights 8. Bd3
Reply #17 - 03/30/11 at 00:38:59
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As for specifics what does White do after 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5ch c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Bd3 Nd5 (What does White do? The h-pawn is poisoned and g5 is hanging.) 9.Nf3 Nf4 10.O-O (Be2 e4 -+) Nxd3 11.cxd3 Do you really think that White has winning chances here?
« Last Edit: 03/30/11 at 12:15:18 by Markovich »  
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sloughter
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Re: Two Knights 8. Bd3
Reply #16 - 03/29/11 at 19:42:24
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walkingterrapin wrote on 03/25/11 at 12:39:56:
In a game at the club last night I played an 1800 scholastic that adopted a strange move to me.  I had the better position then blundered, then he reblundered and I was able to win in mutual time trouble.  I am looking for any help with this line. From both sides of the board.

1.  e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. ed Na5 6. Bb5+ c6 7. dc bc 8. Bd3 Nd5 9. Nf3 Qc7 (already here i think i am going wrong.) 10. 0-0 Nf4 11. Re1 Bd6 12.Nc3 f5 13.  Be2 0-0 14. d3 Nd5 15. Bd2 Nc3  (This embarks on a stupid combination on my part that doesnt work.) 16. Bc3 Nb7 17.l Qd2 Rae8 18. Qg5 Rf6 19. Nh4 Nc5 20. d4 Ne6 (Bad move) 21. Bc4 h6 22. Qh5 e4 23. d5 Nf4 24. dc Be6 25. Be6 Rfe6 26. Qf5 Rf8 27. Qb5? Qf7 28. Rf1 g5 29. Nf5 Qf5 31. Qf5 Rf5.  I ended up winning in the time scramble at the end.   


What you would like White to do is capture the Knight on d5 so that you have pawns on d5/e5/f5. The pawn storm is almost unstoppable. I know Nf4 looks tempting but it is better to leave White no other choice than playing Nxd5.
  
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Re: Two Knights 8. Bd3
Reply #15 - 03/27/11 at 17:58:49
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iris wrote on 03/27/11 at 16:41:21:
Walking T, I remember hearing a comment from a Life Master from NC(maybe western part).."there is no perfect game,we all makes mistakes,most of the time the player with the easier game makes fewer mistakes".  I think that it all comes down to who has the easier game to play.After 8.Bd3 if white plays a couple of subpar moves he is probably still in the game,maybe inferior but still fighting.However if black makes a couple of subpar moves then he loses!  CoolIris


In theory maybe, in praxis though I think you have that backwards, White's position just looks ridiculous to me, of course he does have a pawn for his trouble but Black has the initiative. The surprise value of 8.Bd3 has worn off now and I think its no longer that appealing to White players.

Andrew Martin recommends 8.Qf3 on his DVD, gotta put bread on the table I guess, but I bet he would never punt Ng5 himself against a strong player like say a Mark Hebden in a tournament game.

Ive been playing the two knights for years n years and never faced 4.Ng5 in a tournament game, everybody usually goes for the sensible 4.d3, sometimes the trappy 4.d4 is played, but its not very effective despite Dzindzi's vigorous promotion of it.

Back to 8.Bd3 look up a game by D.Bojkov as Black, I like his approach, it looks quite interesting.

Buh bye

Tops Smiley
   
  
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Re: Two Knights 8. Bd3
Reply #14 - 03/27/11 at 16:41:21
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Walking T, I remember hearing a comment from a Life Master from NC(maybe western part).."there is no perfect game,we all makes mistakes,most of the time the player with the easier game makes fewer mistakes".  I think that it all comes down to who has the easier game to play.After 8.Bd3 if white plays a couple of subpar moves he is probably still in the game,maybe inferior but still fighting.However if black makes a couple of subpar moves then he loses!  CoolIris
  
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Re: Two Knights 8. Bd3
Reply #13 - 03/27/11 at 06:26:26
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Both Short and Howell have become advocates for Bd3. I think it has reasonable coverage on Lawrence Trent's CB DVD on the Two Knoghts. I don;t know what Martin is recommending on his recent (118?) Foxy on the Two Knights - I know he recommends Ng5, so I didn't bother with the rest as I prefer d3 or d4 against the Two Knights...

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Re: Two Knights 8. Bd3
Reply #12 - 03/26/11 at 18:26:01
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Paddy wrote on 03/25/11 at 23:15:13:
trw wrote on 03/25/11 at 18:22:54:
Paddy wrote on 03/25/11 at 17:58:28:
The first game in Megabase with 8 Bd3 is from the famous Gunsberg-Tchigorin match, Havana 1890. 

It was never wildly popular and became seriously discredited after the famous game Castaldi-Keres, Stockholm 1937.

I think that its modern resurgence can be attributed to the game Stellwagen-L’Ami, 2008 (after which we start seeing it being played by the likes of Morozevich, Short, Nakamura, Navara,,, ), although earlier it was played by Petr Marusenko, who even managed to beat Hebden with it (Hastings 1998-9), Since 2008 we have seen many more trials of 8 Bd3 and the theory is still in flux.

I suspect that it will be found to be no more and no less a threat to the viability of the fascinating  “Tchigorin Counter-Attack” (5…Na5) than any other of White's tries. Black always has some compensation; so it’s just a nicely unbalanced game. 



I play it with both colors because I feel its a largely unexplored arena teeming with possibilities for both sides. It is easy to miss something and outplay your opponent here. Plus the resulting positions are just exciting and fun me to play (either side). But objectively I think its just =. 

One small correction Paddy, it was Stellwagen vs De Jong 2008 1-0 then Morozevich revived the line first playing it in blitz against Karjakin 1/2-1/2 2008 then Stellwagen played L'Ami later in 2008 1/2-1/2 (Third modern top level game of 2008 not first).


Thank you for your correction. Maybe you have acccess to a primary source? If so, Megabase has it wrong:Stellwagen-L'Ami is dated 6th March 2008 and Stellwagen-De Jong is dated 12th April 2008.

It is possible that the idea that 8 Bd3 might be much better than its reputation had been around "on the circuit" or in internet games between GMs before 2008, but I was using only sources I knew about and had access to. Perhaps Tony K or Glenn F can shed some light here?



hmmm perhaps I am wrong then... the date I see for Stellwagen-L'ami is May 6th. so now i'm just confused.

The funny thing though is I remember when I was analyzing Stellwagen-L'ami back in 2008 that I remember there being several mention of Morozevich games yet now I can find only the one vs Karjakin. Shocked
  
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Re: Two Knights 8. Bd3
Reply #11 - 03/25/11 at 23:15:13
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trw wrote on 03/25/11 at 18:22:54:
Paddy wrote on 03/25/11 at 17:58:28:
The first game in Megabase with 8 Bd3 is from the famous Gunsberg-Tchigorin match, Havana 1890. 

It was never wildly popular and became seriously discredited after the famous game Castaldi-Keres, Stockholm 1937.

I think that its modern resurgence can be attributed to the game Stellwagen-L’Ami, 2008 (after which we start seeing it being played by the likes of Morozevich, Short, Nakamura, Navara,,, ), although earlier it was played by Petr Marusenko, who even managed to beat Hebden with it (Hastings 1998-9), Since 2008 we have seen many more trials of 8 Bd3 and the theory is still in flux.

I suspect that it will be found to be no more and no less a threat to the viability of the fascinating  “Tchigorin Counter-Attack” (5…Na5) than any other of White's tries. Black always has some compensation; so it’s just a nicely unbalanced game. 



I play it with both colors because I feel its a largely unexplored arena teeming with possibilities for both sides. It is easy to miss something and outplay your opponent here. Plus the resulting positions are just exciting and fun me to play (either side). But objectively I think its just =. 

One small correction Paddy, it was Stellwagen vs De Jong 2008 1-0 then Morozevich revived the line first playing it in blitz against Karjakin 1/2-1/2 2008 then Stellwagen played L'Ami later in 2008 1/2-1/2 (Third modern top level game of 2008 not first).


Thank you for your correction. Maybe you have acccess to a primary source? If so, Megabase has it wrong:Stellwagen-L'Ami is dated 6th March 2008 and Stellwagen-De Jong is dated 12th April 2008.

It is possible that the idea that 8 Bd3 might be much better than its reputation had been around "on the circuit" or in internet games between GMs before 2008, but I was using only sources I knew about and had access to. Perhaps Tony K or Glenn F can shed some light here?
  
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Re: Two Knights 8. Bd3
Reply #10 - 03/25/11 at 20:14:43
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I was hoping micawber would join this subject Smiley

Would you elaborate on your preference for Ng4
  
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Re: Two Knights 8. Bd3
Reply #9 - 03/25/11 at 19:55:02
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Here is a good place to start for those who wish to study this line. 
Personally I prefer 8...Ng4, though in 2010 Erwin l'Ami lost a game in this var against L.McShane.

http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/games/java/2009/nakamura-friedel-us09.htm
  
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Re: Two Knights 8. Bd3
Reply #8 - 03/25/11 at 18:53:20
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Markovich wrote on 03/25/11 at 18:49:17:
I suppose that I have always taken Tarrasch way too seriously.  But I wouldn't go near this move because it just doesn't look like chess to me.  I know that putting the KB in front of the d-pawn is all the rage these days, but there it is.


really not sure it is all the rage tbh, still few games played it just a couple of big names has brought some attractions to it. But is still considered a mainline and has been analyzed a bit by all Two Knights books and literature dating back to the 1900s.
  
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Re: Two Knights 8. Bd3
Reply #7 - 03/25/11 at 18:49:17
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I suppose that I have always taken Tarrasch way too seriously.  But I wouldn't go near this move because it just doesn't look like chess to me.  I know that putting the KB in front of the d-pawn is all the rage these days, but there it is.
  
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Re: Two Knights 8. Bd3
Reply #6 - 03/25/11 at 18:22:54
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Paddy wrote on 03/25/11 at 17:58:28:
The first game in Megabase with 8 Bd3 is from the famous Gunsberg-Tchigorin match, Havana 1890. 

It was never wildly popular and became seriously discredited after the famous game Castaldi-Keres, Stockholm 1937.

I think that its modern resurgence can be attributed to the game Stellwagen-L’Ami, 2008 (after which we start seeing it being played by the likes of Morozevich, Short, Nakamura, Navara,,, ), although earlier it was played by Petr Marusenko, who even managed to beat Hebden with it (Hastings 1998-9), Since 2008 we have seen many more trials of 8 Bd3 and the theory is still in flux.

I suspect that it will be found to be no more and no less a threat to the viability of the fascinating  “Tchigorin Counter-Attack” (5…Na5) than any other of White's tries. Black always has some compensation; so it’s just a nicely unbalanced game. 



I play it with both colors because I feel its a largely unexplored arena teeming with possibilities for both sides. It is easy to miss something and outplay your opponent here. Plus the resulting positions are just exciting and fun me to play (either side). But objectively I think its just =. 

One small correction Paddy, it was Stellwagen vs De Jong 2008 1-0 then Morozevich revived the line first playing it in blitz against Karjakin 1/2-1/2 2008 then Stellwagen played L'Ami later in 2008 1/2-1/2 (Third modern top level game of 2008 not first).
  
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