Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Out of the book.. (Read 10349 times)
gzt
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I am a patzer.

Posts: 39
Location: America
Joined: 03/24/11
Gender: Male
Re: Out of the book..
Reply #22 - 04/04/11 at 21:53:07
Post Tools
gwnn wrote on 04/04/11 at 09:36:46:
I'm currently reading Bronstein's Zurich 1953 and I'm thinking of getting Yusupov's books, 2 and 3, or possibly 1 2 and 3.

If you're doing Yusupov, start with the Fundamentals level (1). There will be a lot of easy chapters, but several challenging ones. Your rating is a little over their nominal target range, but you will benefit and people say the nominal target range might be a little low. Just IMO from my own experience of working with them, I just bought them and am enjoying them a lot.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Fromper
Senior Member
****
Offline


GrandPatzer

Posts: 378
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Joined: 03/12/10
Gender: Male
Re: Out of the book..
Reply #21 - 04/04/11 at 20:20:46
Post Tools
I've gotten a lot better at time management over the years. I used to play too slow all the time.

One thing I've definitely done is stop worrying about my opponent. I don't care what my opponent thinks. I don't care how much time my opponent has left on his clock. I don't care about my opponent's rating, which I usually don't even look at before the game. I only care about the position on the board and the amount of time on my clock. 

Whenever I know what move I'm going to make, I just make it. That means banging out opening moves rather rapidly while still in my memorized book knowledge. If we're still in book, but there are move order issues, I'll occasionally slow down just to make sure I'm not mixing up move orders. But even with writing down moves, it only takes maybe 3-5 seconds for me to bang out my book moves. When we reach the end of my memorized preparation, I'm sure my opponent knows it, as I usually spend at least a minute or two thinking about my next move, after banging out the earlier moves so quickly. The way I see it, if I know what move I'm going to make, then I may as well save time for later in the game, when I'll need the extra time on my clock.

I apply the same method to later in the game. I know some people move faster when their opponent's in time trouble, in the hopes of catching them off guard, but I've seen too many people blunder while trying to do this. Blundering in time trouble is bad, but blundering in your opponent's time trouble, when you had plenty of time, is even worse. 

  

GrandPatzer!!!

1777 peak USCF rating - currently 1620 from coming back rusty
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Matemax
God Member
*****
Offline


Chesspub gives you strength!

Posts: 1302
Joined: 11/04/07
Re: Out of the book..
Reply #20 - 04/04/11 at 20:20:38
Post Tools
I admit I am out of book now Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gwnn
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 472
Joined: 03/21/11
Re: Out of the book..
Reply #19 - 04/04/11 at 19:12:31
Post Tools
Sure my evaluation might be wrong often, but I'm talking about positions where I have a good fluid pawn centre and I am gradually advancing it, and my opponent is increasingly squeezed. This often seems to be the case when I open 1 d4. All my pieces are active, and he is just defending. I know my intuition is iffy, but it is not so hard to see that in these cases I have a nice advantage. I'm not talking like mutual pawn storms where who knows who is better? The problem is that often I don't take all the necessary precautions when I try to break through and I let him back in the game.

Maybe the biggest problem I have is that I don't have a club where I can play long games for practice. I like playing like that a lot, especially analysing after. Also the reason why I asked about books is that I like reading, I mean if I sit down with the computer, he won't explain to me why one move is better than the other.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Matemax
God Member
*****
Offline


Chesspub gives you strength!

Posts: 1302
Joined: 11/04/07
Re: Out of the book..
Reply #18 - 04/04/11 at 17:54:02
Post Tools
gwnn wrote on 04/04/11 at 09:36:46:

Your post is full of very interesting points!

Quote:
Make no mistake about it, I very often lose even if I get out of the opening with a +/= or +/-.
 
Correct evaluation of a position is a sign of chess mastery and one of the most difficult tasks within the game of chess, especially during playing itself. In analysis it's easier to "freeze" the position and claim and advantage at some point. In the practical game it is just a snapshot in time (for one move perhaps) in a particular position. During the game it is more important to keep on playing, to "stay in the game" than to tell yourself "I am better here". So at every move it is back to the roots: "What is the threat here?" "Thinking about the next move - do I lose something with it?" - I think that more than 90 % of all the games in chess history were simply LOST due to some kind of one move blunder! If we avoid that and "stay in the game" we pass this task to our opponent. As your opponent did in your game - playing ...Bc7 he saved his piece, you played c4 and lost (he did NOT win - you LOST!).

Quote:
Make no mistake about it, I very often lose even if I get out of the opening with a +/= or +/-.
There is a second remark to this - How do you know if it is +/= or +/- and I dare to say, how do you know if it is +- (desicive advantage) during the game? Perhaps your evaluation is just wrong and it is =/+ or -/+ or even -+. It may also be "counterplay", "compensation", "attack" or "initiative" or the marvellous "unclear". During the game - very difficult. Afterwards at analysis - sometimes hard work for a correct assesment

Quote:
That's usually because of tactical oversights

Yes! - Avoid yours and find those of your oppenent - it's + 300 Elo at least Wink

Quote:
But I don't think I'd be better off if I'd just get my pieces out where I felt like it, say playing the Colle or KIA or some such. I don't think I understand those systems very well. I remember a short conversation I had with a GM who told me "accept as much space as your opponent lets you take (and you can maintain reasonably)", which made sense to me and I'm trying to adhere to it as White.
The GM is of course right: "Space" is something favourable (at least most of the times) - as are "central dominance", "better placement of pieces and pawns", "more safe king", "better development". I don't think one should play openings he doesn't like (e.g. the Colle) but to play chess moves according to classical principles (as mentioned above) - therefore your "Starting out with the Grünfeld" should be something like: d4, c4, Nc3, Nf3, Bf4 or Bg5 to bring your pieces out - by playing the cd5-Variation you have jumped over your chess development; I think you still need time to master somewhat basic features of the game. Jump around through the openings, meet all kind of different pawn structures and play them (not only replay!) - then you come back to the systems you like most and study theory more deeply.

Quote:
Also what would you recommend as reading material to help with my middlegame skills?
I would recommend playing instead of reading - either find yourself a human partner to test various middle game positions or take different types of pawn-structures and play against an engine. E.g. pawn chains, open centre, opposite castling and so on - Why not make your own library of middle-game position with a database? Just replay games you like and sort them by your own themes - for the start I would recommend "older classical" games - perhaps make your way up through chess history? If you can afford Kasparovs "predecessors" books you will get the whole bunch of chess ideas, middlegame motivs, endgames and openings. 

Anyway - I still like J. Rowson most when he says: "Improvement starts at the edge of your comfort zone" - this just means, don't consume chess, but work on it - and work means thinking for yourself, pushing pieces around the board, beeing sceptical about chess moves and evaluations, trying to find your own solution in the chess riddle. It took me more than 20 years to recognize this!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gwnn
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 472
Joined: 03/21/11
Re: Out of the book..
Reply #17 - 04/04/11 at 09:36:46
Post Tools
Matemax, thanks for your long and thoughtful post. I hope you don't mind me disagreeing partially with what you wrote. Usually when I play against people who are below me or up to ~1900, I get a solid position as black or a solid initiative as white. They don't know the mainlines very well either, and I know most of the basic ideas, so I can combine various plans that I know even if I don't know the specific moves. Make no mistake about it, I very often lose even if I get out of the opening with a +/= or +/-. That's usually because of tactical oversights or not finding the proper moves to keep the pressure on (piece coordination, forgetting about their counterplay, etc). But I don't think I'd be better off if I'd just get my pieces out where I felt like it, say playing the Colle or KIA or some such. I don't think I understand those systems very well. I remember a short conversation I had with a GM who told me "accept as much space as your opponent lets you take (and you can maintain reasonably)", which made sense to me and I'm trying to adhere to it as White.

Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say is that even if I had played the Colle against this 2000 rated girl, I would probably have lost, but against someone who is 1500 or 1700 I can get a good position with Rb1 as opposed to some stale position that I don't like in the Colle.

I am curious, however, what would you recommend me in general and against the Grunfeld in particular (forgive me for sort of starting a straw man, I just used the Colle as an example)? Also what would you recommend as reading material to help with my middlegame skills? I'm currently reading Bronstein's Zurich 1953 and I'm thinking of getting Yusupov's books, 2 and 3, or possibly 1 2 and 3.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Uhohspaghettio
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 515
Joined: 02/23/11
Re: Out of the book..
Reply #16 - 04/04/11 at 00:53:25
Post Tools
I understood the question to mean: "Will you bluff to your opponent that you're out of book and don't know what you're doing when in fact you know that your move is of Super GM quality". Notice how Gwynn states that you KNOW what you're going to move exactly, there is no question about different variations of move orders, etc.  

This could be critical in a long line where for example maybe your opponent thinks you're falling straight into a trap with your move. I wouldn't play this immediately because your opponent will think: "okay, obviously that is a book move". It's about masking the quality of your moves. Even online blitz, if someone makes a move quickly in the opening, you're going to highly suspect it's a top quality move. 

Sometimes online if I spot a potential trap by my opponent or a favourable zwischenzug for me, I play the moves fast encouraging my opponent also to play fast and falling into the mistake. You might do this yourself without realizing it. 

Sometimes if someone makes an OBVIOUS and heinous mistake, I let it there for a while... just to make sure they see good what a ridiculous move they made, and hold onto the pathetic hope they have that I'll miss it also. Grin I think it messes with their head a bit. They don't immediately go into "desperate struggle" mode, and you're not yet playing the 'unfair' game where you have a huge advantage and under pressure to win. I pretend to think... "surely there's something more to it". I've found this is a good way to get them to resign also, if you take it fast, they often play on with a fast move themselves.
« Last Edit: 04/04/11 at 02:33:46 by Uhohspaghettio »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
parisestmagique
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 473
Location: paris
Joined: 01/24/06
Gender: Male
Re: Out of the book..
Reply #15 - 04/03/11 at 21:35:06
Post Tools
I use to take a little time to play my moves when i am in my "book", say 30 seconds and i take a lot of time after to try to find moves as strong as theory !
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Matemax
God Member
*****
Offline


Chesspub gives you strength!

Posts: 1302
Joined: 11/04/07
Re: Out of the book..
Reply #14 - 04/03/11 at 17:43:52
Post Tools
gwnn wrote on 04/03/11 at 16:40:04:

1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 g6
3 Nc3 d5
4 cxd5 Nxd5
5 e4 Nxc3
6 bxc3 Bg7
7 Nf3 c5
8 Rb1 0-0
9 Be2 Nc6
10 d5 Ne5
11 Nxe5 Bxe5
12 Qd2 e6
13 f4 Bc7
14 c4N Ba5
0-1

I knew about the manouevre Bg7-e5-c7-a5, but I didn't realise that it pins my queen. Now I know. And I hope I would have seen it in standard time control.


Well some things come to my mind:

(1) 8.Rb1 is a probably the most complicated line within a strategical and tactical complex opening - maybe should look for easier stuff rated 1650?

(2) at some point Black can win a pawn nearly by force by taking on d4 - you really have to know (and in this case I mean "know" (not understand) what to do then, because things following are very concrete) - perhaps there is better use of study time?

(3) you missed an opening principle: King safety is very important - if you played 14.0-0 to bring your king away from the centre, you also would have been safe from tactical tricks

(4) double attack and pins - probably the main reason for losing many games at lower level - keep your eyes open, protect your pieces

(5) understanding moves is more important than knowing them: So after ...Bc7 you should have asked yourself: What is he doing there? Why isn't he going back to g7 - this looks a lot more natural? Where can the bishop go from c7 - what is his function?

My conclusion:
You are rated 1650 but you certainly want to improve. Don't take the wrong bus! Try to get a higher level of your game by avoiding mistakes and raising your general chess understanding. You may reach 2000 without too much chess theory by playing according to classical chess knowledge. Don't waste your time studying complicated lines - it's like wanting to drive a Formula 1 car, but not having a drivers license. If you have the chess driving license you are able to come up with playable moves in every chess position - from this knowledge and practise you come back to openings, because only now you understand the meaning of moves and move orders.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
AlanG
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 159
Joined: 10/16/08
Re: Out of the book..
Reply #13 - 04/03/11 at 17:17:44
Post Tools
An identical game to yours was played in the Geneva Open on 28/12/2010 - Steenhuis,J (2086) - FM Burnier,D (2296). And this was at a standard time control.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gwnn
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 472
Joined: 03/21/11
Re: Out of the book..
Reply #12 - 04/03/11 at 16:40:04
Post Tools
I knew about the manouevre Bg7-e5-c7-a5, but I didn't realise that it pins my queen. Now I know. And I hope I would have seen it in standard time control.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gwnn
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 472
Joined: 03/21/11
Re: Out of the book..
Reply #11 - 04/03/11 at 16:38:08
Post Tools
oh sure.

1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 g6
3 Nc3 d5
4 cxd5 Nxd5
5 e4 Nxc3
6 bxc3 Bg7
7 Nf3 c5
8 Rb1 0-0
9 Be2 Nc6
10 d5 Ne5
11 Nxe5 Bxe5
12 Qd2 e6
13 f4 Bc7
14 c4N Ba5
0-1
Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Matemax
God Member
*****
Offline


Chesspub gives you strength!

Posts: 1302
Joined: 11/04/07
Re: Out of the book..
Reply #10 - 04/03/11 at 14:57:33
Post Tools
gwnn wrote on 04/03/11 at 14:36:48:
I would say all but one (her last move, which was threatening to take my queen), but of course there's varying degrees of understanding.

Maybe you should share your moves with us to lighten up the case a bit?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gwnn
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 472
Joined: 03/21/11
Re: Out of the book..
Reply #9 - 04/03/11 at 14:36:48
Post Tools
I would say all but one (her last move, which was threatening to take my queen), but of course there's varying degrees of understanding.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Matemax
God Member
*****
Offline


Chesspub gives you strength!

Posts: 1302
Joined: 11/04/07
Re: Out of the book..
Reply #8 - 04/03/11 at 13:21:51
Post Tools
gwnn wrote on 04/03/11 at 13:17:12:
gewgaw wrote on 04/02/11 at 22:34:45:
Actually, how much theoretical battles did you ever have otb. Under 2200 all players play everything, except of real hot theory stuff. I know some theory, but the lines I know rarely occur otb and when I feel a young opponent knows hisher bookstuff, I deviate.  Wink

I played a blitz game against a 2000 player. I had White, played 13 moves of (quite mainline) theory, then thought for 3 seconds, played something and resigned after her reply. Smiley

(I'm rated 1640)

How many of your first 13 moves did you understand? If you really knew why you played them, you would have been able to follow up with reasonable moves.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo