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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Breyer (Read 72231 times)
gwnn
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Re: Breyer
Reply #32 - 01/17/12 at 12:45:01
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At the risk of partially coming back on topic, I'd like to mention that it's funny that Kaufman changed from the Berlin defence to the Breyer defence from his 2003 book to his 2012 book and claims it's based on Carlsen's repertoire, when actually Carlsen plays the Berlin a lot too (e.g. today, or vs Ivanchuk in the blitz playoffs for the GP final), maybe even more than the Breyer (my memory is goldfish-like so I don't know very well).
  
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TN
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Re: Breyer
Reply #31 - 01/17/12 at 05:44:17
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fling wrote on 01/16/12 at 11:43:57:
TN wrote on 01/16/12 at 01:20:15:
Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 01/16/12 at 01:01:01:
I am sure titled players eventually had to learn main lines..


I am sure Kovacevic and Miladinovic will want to hear this news.


Yes, sometimes people reach a certain level despite doing something wrong!

Maybe they would be better if they played real openings  Grin


Yes, I agree with you. Adams once stated that he felt not playing the Open Sicilian at a young age held his chess career back. Of course, in the case of a club player who is happy to get to say 2200 or 2300, it's possible to do so without playing main lines. 

@Markovich

It might be a good idea to move a large portion of this thread to a new topic in general chess, such as 'why people don't play main lines' or 'main line openings and chess improvement'.
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
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Re: Breyer
Reply #30 - 01/16/12 at 19:55:16
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I think occasionally (maybe) some can get away with becoming an FM or IM whilst playing non-main lines, but to me that seems like becoming a PhD in mathematics without ever learning how to do calculus, but that is just me.
  

Creo lo que creo no importa lo que creen los demás.
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fling
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Re: Breyer
Reply #29 - 01/16/12 at 11:43:57
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TN wrote on 01/16/12 at 01:20:15:
Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 01/16/12 at 01:01:01:
I am sure titled players eventually had to learn main lines..


I am sure Kovacevic and Miladinovic will want to hear this news.


Yes, sometimes people reach a certain level despite doing something wrong!

Maybe they would be better if they played real openings  Grin
  
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TN
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Re: Breyer
Reply #28 - 01/16/12 at 01:52:08
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 01/16/12 at 01:51:10:
I find it difficult to imagine if Topalov, Kramnik, Grischuk, etc. could play the Colle or London for the rest of their careers and maintain 2700+ ratings.


I agree completely, my last post was meant to be a joke.  Wink
  

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Re: Breyer
Reply #27 - 01/16/12 at 01:51:10
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I find it difficult to imagine if Topalov, Kramnik, Grischuk, etc. could play the Colle/Torre/London or Wing Gambit for the rest of their careers and maintain 2700+ ratings.
  

Creo lo que creo no importa lo que creen los demás.
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TN
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Re: Breyer
Reply #26 - 01/16/12 at 01:20:15
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 01/16/12 at 01:01:01:
I am sure titled players eventually had to learn main lines..


I am sure Kovacevic and Miladinovic will want to hear this news.
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
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Gilchrist is a legend
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Re: Breyer
Reply #25 - 01/16/12 at 01:01:01
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I am sure titled players eventually had to learn main lines..
  

Creo lo que creo no importa lo que creen los demás.
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Straggler
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Re: Breyer
Reply #24 - 01/15/12 at 22:35:28
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 01/15/12 at 01:08:32:
even if one does not have time to prepare, I do not understand forgoing playing the main lines. Most of the time I do not have much time to prepare due to studies or being busy doing other things, but I still play the Najdorf and Grünfeld as Black and 1. d4 main lines as White, even without any preparation. I just rely on the opening variations I learnt however long ago that may be.

But many people never did learn any main lines.
  
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Re: Breyer
Reply #23 - 01/15/12 at 11:11:28
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If you're young, look relatively well prepared and they think they can probably win via technique, then it just makes sense for them no? The frustration bit does at least seem to have worked Wink

Most people playing sidelines though, do just play them vs everyone. Some of it maybe being scared of preparation (slightly absurd in context!). The prevelance of it does get annoying, although it does also mean that playing main lines gives you surprise value(!).
(not annoying cf results, just interest.).
  
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Re: Breyer
Reply #22 - 01/15/12 at 01:52:06
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Stigma wrote on 01/15/12 at 01:23:57:

Are there really many players out there who play the latest, well-prepared main lines against their peers, but something completely offbeat against higher-rated players? That would be illogical (giving up one's best openings when they are most needed), and I don't know many people who do this.


There was that IM that played the Torre a lot. Sometimes he played main lines, but for some reason against me 100% of the time he played the Torre. The other IM 100% of the time played the Veresov against me, not sure why. Perhaps playing non-main lines is just to frustrate the opponent?
  

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Re: Breyer
Reply #21 - 01/15/12 at 01:43:06
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It would be nice if more people played the main lines. I cannot remember myself ever regularly playing non-main line openings. I learnt the Slav and Taimanov and 1. e4 Open Sicilian and main lines when I first started tournament chess. The only time I played a non main line was when I played the Grand Prix Attack for fun, since it was the last round of a very bad tournament, and another loss would not have mattered to me (even though somehow I won that game). 

There are many ways for White to avoid the Breyer, which is a shame since I was considering learning it and it seems like an underrated variation. There are many deviations to achieve a Breyer, the first being 1. e4 e5 2. f4/2. Nc3/ 2. Bc4/2. d4/etc., the second being 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4/3. Bc4/3. c3/3. Nc3, and then the Exchange Spanish, Delayed Exchange Spanish, Worrall, 5. d3, 6. d3, 7. d3, 8. d3, 9. d4 Spanish, etc. Might as well just play the Berlin Wall...
  

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Re: Breyer
Reply #20 - 01/15/12 at 01:23:57
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 01/15/12 at 01:08:32:
I wonder what opponents who keep playing non-main lines think when playing against 2300+. I have played against a few Morra Gambits played by 2200-2300 players, winning all of them but one, where I was three pawns up in a winning endgame and then suddenly I started to hang my pieces due to stupidity.


Quite often, they are simply thinking "I had better play what I've played before and know something about, even if it's not a main line and my esteemed opponent might disapprove of it." I think they're right in that; familiarity actually counts for more than objective worth in practice.

Are there really many players out there who play the latest, well-prepared main lines against their peers, but something completely offbeat against higher-rated players? That would be illogical (giving up one's best openings when they are most needed), and I don't know many people who do this.

Maybe the offbeat gang should have learned to play main lines to begin with, but when you have a short while (or no time at all) to prepare something against a strong master, that's certainly not the right time to learn a main line from scratch!
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: Breyer
Reply #19 - 01/15/12 at 01:08:32
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I wonder what opponents who keep playing non-main lines think when playing against 2300+. I have played against a few Morra Gambits played by 2200-2300 players, winning all of them but one, where I was three pawns up in a winning endgame and then suddenly I started to hang my pieces due to stupidity.

But on topic of the Breyer, many players around my level still do not play the Ruy Lopez. If they do, it ends up being the Exchange Variation. Most of them play the Four Knights and Bishop's Opening. I suppose titled players will enjoy playing against those openings due to equalising more easily. But then the positions are not as interesting as the Breyer.

The 4NCL does not necessarily mean people will play main lines. Although even if one does not have time to prepare, I do not understand forgoing playing the main lines. Most of the time I do not have much time to prepare due to studies or being busy doing other things, but I still play the Najdorf and Grünfeld as Black and 1. d4 main lines as White, even without any preparation. I just rely on the opening variations I learnt however long ago that may be. I first learnt 1. d4 main lines three years ago, and I play it without preparation if I have to. Lack of preparation certainly does not make me want to play the Colle.
  

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Re: Breyer
Reply #18 - 01/14/12 at 23:29:27
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What I don't understand is that some actually play the same openings over and over all the time. I find it much more fun to push myself by playing different type of openings. Even if I don't win.
  
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