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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Breyer (Read 72228 times)
ghenghisclown
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Re: Breyer
Reply #47 - 01/30/12 at 12:25:26
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fling wrote on 01/30/12 at 10:29:22:
ghenghisclown wrote on 01/30/12 at 10:21:28:

Although, ironically, I just consider the Petroff slightly worse for Black...


I guess most strong players have considered it ok for Black, which could mean very slightly worse. Or maybe e.g. Karpov missed something?


OK, very slightly worse if you prefer....

Of course, it's a question of degree, but is someone going to make the argument that with Black Kramnik has played the Russian Defense as successfully as he once played the Sicilian? 
  

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Re: Breyer
Reply #46 - 01/30/12 at 10:29:22
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ghenghisclown wrote on 01/30/12 at 10:21:28:

Although, ironically, I just consider the Petroff slightly worse for Black...


I guess most strong players have considered it ok for Black, which could mean very slightly worse. Or maybe e.g. Karpov missed something?
  
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ghenghisclown
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Re: Breyer
Reply #45 - 01/30/12 at 10:21:28
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Just want to point out that Qe2 or some other White choice may be drawish, but the opening as a whole may not be. The French Exchange may be drawish, but the French as a whole isn't. 

Although, ironically, I just consider the Petroff slightly worse for Black...
  

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Re: Breyer
Reply #44 - 01/30/12 at 10:06:30
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You're somewhat contradicting yourself.

Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 01/30/12 at 06:17:16:
Petroff is actually not too drawish; the positions that arise can actually become quite unbalanced.


Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 01/30/12 at 06:42:41:
I do not think many players who face the Petroff want to play 5. Qe2 unless they for some reason desperately need a draw.

Because it's drawish.

Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 01/30/12 at 06:42:41:
Even in that case, if Black plays with intent and/or is a bit higher rated, then a draw is definitely not a sure result.

So the Petrov is not too drawish, but despite 5.Qe2 being drawish you are sure that the outcome is not sure.

Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 01/30/12 at 06:42:41:
5. Qe2 reminds me of an Exchange French without queens, which should not be too critical;

And if you are not sure that the result is not sure 5.Qe2 at least is not critical.

Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 01/30/12 at 06:42:41:
there have been some recent games in the Exchange French at IM/GM level and most of those games were not draws.

Ah - games in the French Exchange determine if the Petrov is drawish. Or if you were not saying that, why bringing it up?

Fyi: In 65% of the games with the French Exchange with both players 2400+ were drawn.
The percentage for the Petrov 5.Qe2 on that level is 98%; even the "Najdorf-like" 5.Nc3 saw 73% draws.
The Breyer: 52%.
Sometimes numbers say more than sophistic arguments.
  

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Re: Breyer
Reply #43 - 01/30/12 at 06:42:41
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Only once that I can remember; I won the endgame where I made a few mistakes. It was against some 2200 in the ICC 3-minute pool. I do not think many players who face the Petroff want to play 5. Qe2 unless they for some reason desperately need a draw. Even in that case, if Black plays with intent and/or is a bit higher rated, then a draw is definitely not a sure result. 5. Qe2 reminds me of an Exchange French without queens, which should not be too critical; there have been some recent games in the Exchange French at IM/GM level and most of those games were not draws.
  

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Re: Breyer
Reply #42 - 01/30/12 at 06:33:10
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 01/30/12 at 06:17:16:
Petroff is actually not too drawish; the positions that arise can actually become quite unbalanced. Strangely in my recent online games I either lose quite badly to an attack, or win with an attack of my own, or positionally in a middlegame with two pieces or some endgame, with very few draws. The most popular variation White chooses, 5. Nc3, can lead to Najdorf-like attacking positions for both sides with opposite-side castling, whilst there are a few lines where all the pieces remain on the board until move 20 or so, and Black attacks with ...f5 and ...Rf6. In the sounder Petroff positions, at least Black remains positionally sound. The Petroff actually seems a bit sharper than the Breyer to me, which sounds paradoxical, although both are generally fairly solid openings.


How many times have you had people play 5.Qe2 on you?
  
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Re: Breyer
Reply #41 - 01/30/12 at 06:17:16
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Petroff is actually not too drawish; the positions that arise can actually become quite unbalanced. Strangely in my recent online games I either lose quite badly to an attack, or win with an attack of my own, or positionally in a middlegame with two pieces or some endgame, with very few draws. The most popular variation White chooses, 5. Nc3, can lead to Najdorf-like attacking positions for both sides with opposite-side castling, whilst there are a few lines where all the pieces remain on the board until move 20 or so, and Black attacks with ...f5 and ...Rf6. In the sounder Petroff positions, at least Black remains positionally sound. The Petroff actually seems a bit sharper than the Breyer to me, which sounds paradoxical, although both are generally fairly solid openings.
  

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Re: Breyer
Reply #40 - 01/29/12 at 13:44:14
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I don't think the Petroff and Berlin are on equal terms tbh. In the Petroff black has little winning chances and has to suffer to make a draw, which he probably will manage if he really knows his stuff, whilst in the Berlin proper the bishop pair imo gives good compensation, and if black can regroup offers decent winning chances, least the way Aronian plays it. I don't think that the 4.d3 anti-Berlin is as harmless as some make out though.
  
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Re: Breyer
Reply #39 - 01/22/12 at 20:06:55
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Perhaps because if more people play main lines, one must know them with more detail. I have to do the opposite, and learn sidelines such as 2. c3, 3. Bb5, etc. Sicilians in detail because most people play those instead of the main lines.
  

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Re: Breyer
Reply #38 - 01/22/12 at 19:59:56
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 01/14/12 at 03:39:30:
I am surprised you can play the Breyer so often. At around my level (2250 FIDE), I get anti-Sicilians about 85% of the time when I play the Sicilian, and at least 90% of the time I get d4 sidelines when I attempt to play the Grünfeld. When I try to play 1...e5, more than 90% of the time I get the Bishop's Opening, Four Knights, Scotch, 2. Qe2, 2. d3, Vienna, etc. Not sure why, but having a chance to play main line openings is a rarity for me.


While I am now speaking as an IM, I am pretty sure my estimated 50 % also held when I started playing the Breyer ten years ago, when I was about 2100. I remember some British and American players being surprised by how much theory Norwegian players know, so maybe you are simply more likely to face main lines in Norway than in other countries.

I can understand why learning the Breyer feels less tempting when you face early deviations that often.  Sad
  
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Re: Breyer
Reply #37 - 01/18/12 at 23:10:36
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I play the Najdorf and Petroff, and to me it seems like the Petroff and Berlin are even more difficult to play against than the Najdorf. Breyer is probably about as difficult to play against the Najdorf. But I could see why Petroff and Berlin can deter players from playing 1. e4.
  

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Re: Breyer
Reply #36 - 01/18/12 at 15:57:43
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Recently in an interview Tkachiev said something about White finding it´s way against Berlin and Petroff, but on the other end I agree with Carlsen when he said that those sidelines against the Berlin are nothing. All in all it´s a matter of taste because both Berlin and Breyer are fine like other tries too.
  

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Re: Breyer
Reply #35 - 01/17/12 at 23:04:01
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I suppose it depends on how players feel about the lines avoiding the Berlin, but they seem fine to me even compared with those of the Breyer.
  

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Re: Breyer
Reply #34 - 01/17/12 at 22:07:43
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 01/17/12 at 21:41:54:
I do not see a true reason to change from Berlin to Breyer, since I find the Berlin is actually doing much better than previous years. I see more GMs play it now, and more 1. e4 players trying their best to avoid the Berlin.


Kaufman's explanation makes sense to me: "The Berlin Defense remains quite respectable and is used fairly often by top players, but the Berlin endgame is now generally regarded as at least slightly better for White, and also the sidelines 4.d3 and 4.0-0 Nxe4 5.Re1 are both more promising than white sidelines on the way to the Breyer."
  
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Re: Breyer
Reply #33 - 01/17/12 at 21:41:54
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I do not see a true reason to change from Berlin to Breyer, since I find the Berlin is actually doing much better than previous years. I see more GMs play it now, and more 1. e4 players trying their best to avoid the Berlin.
  

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