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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Leningrad - what to do with 9.Bf4? (Read 14031 times)
chk
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Re: Leningrad - what to do with 9.Bf4?
Reply #15 - 05/25/11 at 09:25:47
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fling wrote on 05/20/11 at 08:26:06:
chk wrote on 05/20/11 at 08:18:41:

and consult a stronger player who plays the line.


Sorry, but isn't this what this forum is about?  Wink



A bit late to respond to this, but here I am:

imo 1-2 hours with a seasoned Leningrad player is enough and a quite practical approach. If then a specific question comes up, you can post it here. But actually 'learning' the Leningrad through a Q&A session here is not practical (he'll need at least 2 hours to write down the questions in the first place!  Grin). Also, general questions will bring general answers, so I think some interaction is needed when first learning an opening..
  
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MNb
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Re: Leningrad - what to do with 9.Bf4?
Reply #14 - 05/20/11 at 16:42:37
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If endgames are boring is a matter of taste - my girlfriend, a very sensible woman, thinks chess in its entirety an utter bore. But there are some specific endgames which some people urge to study I never have met indeed.
Frankly I never have studied endgames much deeper than this:

http://www.chesscafe.com/text/mueller122.pdf

Combined with some experience this doesn't exactly make me an expert, but I am not much weaker in that department either.
  
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Re: Leningrad - what to do with 9.Bf4?
Reply #13 - 05/20/11 at 15:15:14
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chk wrote on 05/20/11 at 08:18:41:
But like other people say, nowadays I don't see the point in studying openings so deep at your level. In a real (human) game at your level, noone is going to play the main line Leningrad Dutch against you (I bet you not one in 10 games!). Better do tactics, strategy or endgames. And of course openings, but without learning concrete lines.


I agree - people spend way too much time on studying openings rather than improving their game as a whole. This is understandable since the latter is hard and may be frustrating, but there is no point studying very deep opening variations if you haven't got a clue what to do afterwards!!

Especially the ENDGAME is very under-rated and it pays off spending serious time on this. The arguments people use for not doing this don't make sense. They are:
1.I never get endgames in my games.
Rubbish. Check the last 20 games you played.
2.Endgames are booooring!!
Not al all! On the contrary. The beauty of our game is revealed in these fascinating complexities you have in positions with very reduced material.
  
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andropov14
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Re: Leningrad - what to do with 9.Bf4?
Reply #12 - 05/20/11 at 12:09:06
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Thanks again for all your inputs and effort. The ideas you´ve presented bring me, into somewhat known territory, so I think I can move forward from here on.

Its an interesting debate about how to grow as a chessplayer - how and what to study and spent time on. I think that its only one part of my ambition though. I love exploring the ideas and ´aestetics`of the game - Understanding one particular line and its posibilities gives me some kind of satisfaction in it self. I may not face this line on the board, but I believe I take something with me evrytime, including this one.
  
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Re: Leningrad - what to do with 9.Bf4?
Reply #11 - 05/20/11 at 08:26:06
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chk wrote on 05/20/11 at 08:18:41:

and consult a stronger player who plays the line.


Sorry, but isn't this what this forum is about?  Wink

  
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chk
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Re: Leningrad - what to do with 9.Bf4?
Reply #10 - 05/20/11 at 08:18:41
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His book is precisely Kindermann's!

This book however is packed with theory and though it is a serious work and very useful for advanced players, I cannot help but feeling this is a waste of your chess studying time (at your level). If you really like the idea of playing the Dutch Leningrad (personally I see no problem having played the KID for most of my youth), it is better to stick to the introductory 'ideas' chapter and consult a stronger player who plays the line.

But like other people say, nowadays I don't see the point in studying openings so deep at your level. In a real (human) game at your level, noone is going to play the main line Leningrad Dutch against you (I bet you not one in 10 games!). Better do tactics, strategy or endgames. And of course openings, but without learning concrete lines.
  
"I play honestly and I play to win. If I lose, I take my medicine." - Bobby
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Re: Leningrad - what to do with 9.Bf4?
Reply #9 - 05/19/11 at 17:10:35
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If one of your books is Kindermann's, you can find the answer in the first illustrative game, Yusupov - Bareev, Munich 1993. There White's 9.Be3 was answered with the ambitious 9...h6. Against 9.Bf4 h6 works much better for at least two reasons. 

1. Yusupov prevented g5 by playing 10.h4. With the Bishop on f4 this is bad because of 10...Nh5 and if 11.Be3 f4! and g3 is attacked too. 

2. In remark B) Kindermann shows that 9.Be3 h6 10.Qd2 g5 11.h4!? is unclear after 11...f4! 12.gxf4 g4 13.Nd4 Qh5 with some compensation. In this line Black wins a useful tempo when the Bishop is on f4: 9.Bf4 h6 10.Qd2 g5 11.Be3 Na6 or 11...Qh5.

Don't let people discourage you from playing the Leningrad. No player of your strength will be able to punish you for playing that and against the stronger players it's difficult anyway.

  
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Re: Leningrad - what to do with 9.Bf4?
Reply #8 - 05/19/11 at 17:05:36
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9.Bf4 has only been played once, which is hardly surprising given the game continuation. 

If white wants to play for a bishop trade with Bh6, then 9.Bd2 and 10.Qc1 is a better way to go about it, though it's still nothing special for white. But good enough for Beliavsky to beat Glek eleven years ago and then never play it again.

  
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Re: Leningrad - what to do with 9.Bf4?
Reply #7 - 05/19/11 at 16:43:18
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andropov14 wrote on 05/19/11 at 14:03:21:
my rating is just above 1200, so a move thats good in the eyes of fritz might not be for me,

Like Kylemeister I think the Leningrad isn't good for you either. When I was still 1200-1500 I tried it a few times and I lost several games without having the slightest understanding why.
Play the Tarrasch or if that doesn't suit you the Tartakower with ...exd5 (iso ...Nxd5) and without ...h6; or the Benkö Gambit.
  
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Re: Leningrad - what to do with 9.Bf4?
Reply #6 - 05/19/11 at 15:49:49
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OT, but I suppose it's a sign of the times for a 1200 player to be studying something like repertoire books on the Leningrad Dutch ...
  
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Re: Leningrad - what to do with 9.Bf4?
Reply #5 - 05/19/11 at 15:02:53
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Perhaps 9...Na6 first. Then if White plays 10.Nd4 you can play 10...Nh5 since Bd4 won't be possible.
  
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Re: Leningrad - what to do with 9.Bf4?
Reply #4 - 05/19/11 at 14:03:21
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Thanks for your replies.
After 9...nh5 10.bg5,h6 11.be3,f4, white can play bd4 and exchange bishops, because I haven´t yet played c5.. And if I play 9.. c5, he gets time to play Qd2 and then exchange bishops.
So thats my dilemma, and I cant find similar posisions elsewhere in the book.

Your right about the computeranalasis though - my problem is maybe that I dont really know how to do that - my rating is just above 1200, so a move thats good in the eyes of fritz might not be for me, I think, since fritz asumes, that I won´t fall into the easiest of traps and therefore doesn´t mention them - but I probably will fall into them, so I´m not shure how I should use it.
  
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Re: Leningrad - what to do with 9.Bf4?
Reply #3 - 05/19/11 at 08:22:51
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Have a look at other positions in the book where white plays Bf4. If black manage to play e5, he's more than alright. h6, g5 is often another possibility.

And as said, Nh5, f4 is thematic.

Also: Use your computer for analysis, not just playing vs the book. Explore different ideas with it.
  
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Re: Leningrad - what to do with 9.Bf4?
Reply #2 - 05/18/11 at 22:29:38
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Doesn't Bf4 just invite ...Nh5 and , if the bishop moves, ...f4, which is one of Black's standard plans in the Leningrad anyway? I guess White could just leave the bishop to be exchanged, but then Black will always have the bishop pair to build on.
  
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Re: Leningrad - what to do with 9.Bf4?
Reply #1 - 05/18/11 at 21:52:20
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You certainly shouldn't make that kind of assumption (that a move not mentioned in an opening book[s] must be terrible).
  
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Leningrad - what to do with 9.Bf4?
05/18/11 at 20:45:02
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Hi, 
I want to play the leningrad dutch, so I´ve just bought the book "Leningrad system - a complete weapon against d4". After the moves: 1.d4,f5 2.g3,Nf6 3.Bg2,g6 4.Nf3,Bg7 5.00,00 6.c4,d6 7.d5,Qe8 8.Nc3,a5 - my computer keeps playing 9.Bf4.. This move isn´t mentioned in the book, or in another one I have on the leningrad, so I figure it must be because it opens up for some kind of forced combination winning material or the likes - I just cant figure out what the best move might be.
Any inputs?

Andropov
  
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