(UTC)
Latest Updates:
  ChessPub Forum › Chess Publishing Openings › 1. e4 e5 - Non-Spanish › 2 Knights › C56-C59: Aggressive white play against 2 Knights
(Moderators: Smyslov_Fan, trw, Jupp53)
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C56-C59: Aggressive white play against 2 Knights (Read 66466 times)
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2928
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Aggressive way for white against Two Knights Defen
Reply #49 - 06/14/11 at 09:48:13
Post Tools
I also think 4.d3 is the best move from strictly theoretical viewpoint. It is no accident that most strong GMs play that way. Aiming for positions that are some kind of pre-configuration of classic Spanish positions I think White can get a bit of a nibble, and importantly all the pieces are kept on the board setting things up for a nice tense middlegame.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 3420
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: Aggressive way for white against Two Knights Defen
Reply #48 - 06/14/11 at 02:17:38
Post Tools
Fllg wrote on 06/13/11 at 10:22:54:
Stigma wrote on 06/13/11 at 10:14:54:

The ultimate solution to this problem may well be 1.d4!  Wink


OT/ I don´t think so. 1.d4 d5 has been proven to be very resilent for Black. There has even been an article by Jan Gustafsson asking "Is the QGD the new Petroff?". /OT


Link?

Quote:
Fair enough, from the viewpoint of practice.  Theory, I'm not so sure; I think that theory holds the Spanish in somewhat higher esteem that White's play against the Two Knights.  I think that Black having played 2...Nc6 should be happy whenever his opponent fails to play 3.Bb5.  The only system that give rise to some fear, at least in me, the Scotch.  But not as much.


There's no doubt that the Spanish is a better try for an advantage than any of White's alternatives. Personally I think 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3 Be7 (or 4...Bc5 5.c3) 5.0-0 0-0 6.Bb3 is White's best chance for an advantage against the Two Knights Defence, but it doesn't fall into the 'aggressive' category.

What I have noticed is that in the 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3 Bc5 5.c3 variation where White avoids castling kingside, computers do not have any understanding of the positions, which means that from a practical perspective, someone preparing against this variation cannot automatically equalise just by playing the first line of the computer on the board.
  
All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Aggressive way for white against Two Knights Defen
Reply #47 - 06/13/11 at 16:39:02
Post Tools
Stigma wrote on 06/13/11 at 10:14:54:
Markovich wrote on 06/13/11 at 01:48:11:
How very hopeful for White so many of these posts seem to be. You would have thought that not tossing White's birthright advantage (or inititive anyway) was a good reason for not playing into the main lines of the Two Knights. White does indeed have some play for the win in 4.Ng5 and 4.d4 exd4 5.e5 --just no more than Black does, I opine. 

All in all Black improves significantly on the initial position.

But you can argue the same way about the Marshall and the Berlin, and probably the Scotch main lines (though they have been popular on top level recently). 

The fact of the matter is, White has big problems proving an advantage whatever he plays after 1.e4 e5. So why not play into the Two Knights' from time to time, to test Black's preparation?

The ultimate solution to this problem may well be 1.d4!  Wink


Fair enough, from the viewpoint of practice.  Theory, I'm not so sure; I think that theory holds the Spanish in somewhat higher esteem that White's play against the Two Knights.  I think that Black having played 2...Nc6 should be happy whenever his opponent fails to play 3.Bb5.  The only system that give rise to some fear, at least in me, the Scotch.  But not as much.
  
The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: Aggressive way for white against Two Knights Defen
Reply #46 - 06/13/11 at 10:26:14
Post Tools
QGD was the Petroff before the Petroff was the Petroff. Grin

(Alekhine-Capablanca, Kasparov-Karpov matches)
  
2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
Fllg
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 647
Joined: 05/30/09
Gender: Male
Re: Aggressive way for white against Two Knights Defen
Reply #45 - 06/13/11 at 10:22:54
Post Tools
Stigma wrote on 06/13/11 at 10:14:54:

The ultimate solution to this problem may well be 1.d4!  Wink


OT/ I don´t think so. 1.d4 d5 has been proven to be very resilent for Black. There has even been an article by Jan Gustafsson asking "Is the QGD the new Petroff?". /OT
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3277
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: Aggressive way for white against Two Knights Defen
Reply #44 - 06/13/11 at 10:14:54
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 06/13/11 at 01:48:11:
How very hopeful for White so many of these posts seem to be. You would have thought that not tossing White's birthright advantage (or inititive anyway) was a good reason for not playing into the main lines of the Two Knights. White does indeed have some play for the win in 4.Ng5 and 4.d4 exd4 5.e5 --just no more than Black does, I opine. 

All in all Black improves significantly on the initial position.

But you can argue the same way about the Marshall and the Berlin, and probably the Scotch main lines (though they have been popular on top level recently). 

The fact of the matter is, White has big problems proving an advantage whatever he plays after 1.e4 e5. So why not play into the Two Knights' from time to time, to test Black's preparation?

The ultimate solution to this problem may well be 1.d4!  Wink
  
Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2928
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Aggressive way for white against Two Knights Defen
Reply #43 - 06/13/11 at 09:00:49
Post Tools
Paddy wrote on 06/12/11 at 12:58:28:


It might be significant that the 5. e5 expert Okhotnik has reached the key position after move 11 twice; the first time he played 12 Bxg5 Qxg5 13 g3, but later he switched to the Estrin plan of 12.0-0-0 Ne6 13.Qa4 Bd7 14.Qa3. He won both games.


Good point, the more I look at it the more I am coming around to the Qa4-a3 idea. This game is almost a text-book example of one thing White is aiming for in the whole line - the endgame with Rooks and opposite coloured Bishops is one where Black will always suffer.

Okhotnik-Valuet, 2002
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d4 exd4 5. e5 d5 6. Bb5 Ne4 7. Nxd4 Bc5 8.
Be3 Bxd4 9. Qxd4 O-O 10. Bxc6 bxc6 11. Nc3 Ng5 12. O-O-O Ne6 13. Qa4 Bd7 14.
Qa3 f6 15. exf6 Qxf6 16. Ne4 Qh4 17. Nc5 Nxc5 18. Bxc5 Qg5+ 19. Qe3 Qxe3+ 20.
Bxe3 a5 21. a4 Rfe8 22. b3 Bf5 23. Rhe1 Re4 24. f3 Re7 25. Bc5 Rf7 26. Re5 g5
27. Rde1 h6 28. Re8+ Rxe8 29. Rxe8+ Kh7 30. Ra8 g4 31. f4 g3 32. hxg3 Be4 33.
Rxa5 Rg7 34. Bf2 h5 35. Rc5 h4 36. gxh4 Rxg2 37. Bd4 Rg4 38. a5 Rxf4 39. a6 Rf8
40. Rxc6 Ra8 41. a7 Bf5 42. Rxc7+ Kg6 43. Rb7 1-0
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
agropop
Junior Member
**
Offline


Use your brain

Posts: 51
Location: Madrid
Joined: 04/13/10
Gender: Male
Re: Aggressive way for white against Two Knights Defen
Reply #42 - 06/13/11 at 08:26:06
Post Tools
JamesH wrote on 06/12/11 at 12:30:54:
White can try 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4. 0-0!? Nxe4 (4...Bc5 5.b4 transposes to a kind of evans gambit which you wanted) 5.Nc3! Nxc3 6.dxc3 Be7 7.Qd5 0-0 8.Nxe5 there is level material and white has some attacking chances and more open files, the semi open d file could be useful for example.


Also here there is 5...Nd6!? and black is equal without trouble, for example 6. Bb3 Be7 7.Te1 e4! 8.Ne4 Ne4 9.Re4 d5 and next 0-0. In this position if anyone is better, should be black.


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Aggressive way for white against Two Knights Defen
Reply #41 - 06/13/11 at 01:48:11
Post Tools
How very hopeful for White so many of these posts seem to be. You would have thought that not tossing White's birthright advantage (or inititive anyway) was a good reason for not playing into the main lines of the Two Knights. White does indeed have some play for the win in 4.Ng5 and 4.d4 exd4 5.e5 --just no more than Black does, I opine. 

All in all Black improves significantly on the initial position.
  
The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10777
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Aggressive way for white against Two Knights Defen
Reply #40 - 06/12/11 at 22:33:35
Post Tools
I thought 5.d4 would be better than 5.Nc3 as 5.d4 exd4 transposes to 4.d4, but Black has other options. So yes, 4.0-0 is inferior to 4.d4.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JamesH
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline



Posts: 43
Location: England
Joined: 06/03/11
Gender: Male
Re: Aggressive way for white against Two Knights Defen
Reply #39 - 06/12/11 at 19:07:09
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 06/12/11 at 14:55:27:
JamesH wrote on 06/12/11 at 12:30:54:
White can try 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4. 0-0!? Nxe4 5.Nc3! Nxc3 6.dxc3 Be7 7.Qd5 0-0 8.Nxe5

White can try this and hope that Black won't play 6...f6 7.Nh4 (7.Re1 g6 8.Qd5 Qe7 with the same plan) g6 8.f4 Qe7 9.Kh1 (9.b4 a5) d6 10.Qf3 Qg7. In that case the exclam at White's fifth can be replaced by a questionmark. White can't break through, Black will consolidate, have an extra pawn an a strong centre.


Yeah, this line seems problematic, Deep Houdini gives 7.Qd5, but black is fine and will consolidate, although 5.Nc3 is the best move in the position, so a question mark should probably be awarded to 4.0-0 Cheesy
  
2251 FIDE
213 ECF
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10777
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Aggressive way for white against Two Knights Defen
Reply #38 - 06/12/11 at 14:55:27
Post Tools
JamesH wrote on 06/12/11 at 12:30:54:
White can try 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4. 0-0!? Nxe4 5.Nc3! Nxc3 6.dxc3 Be7 7.Qd5 0-0 8.Nxe5

White can try this and hope that Black won't play 6...f6 7.Nh4 (7.Re1 g6 8.Qd5 Qe7 with the same plan) g6 8.f4 Qe7 9.Kh1 (9.b4 a5) d6 10.Qf3 Qg7. In that case the exclam at White's fifth can be replaced by a questionmark. White can't break through, Black will consolidate, have an extra pawn an a strong centre.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 965
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: Aggressive way for white against Two Knights Defen
Reply #37 - 06/12/11 at 12:58:28
Post Tools
Keano wrote on 06/11/11 at 18:11:34:
I agree the whole line should be equal, but not this particular sideline with ...Bxd4?! Be interesting to see the analyisis of h4!? by Renet but White has so many other good moves here I dont think it matters too much. Playing Qa4 is not one of them I would have thought though, but I'll give that line a look. It just seems a bit awkward to me that plan of Qa4-a3

After 12.Bxg5 Qxg5 13.h4!? Qh5 it seems to me Whites simplest is 14.0-0 and follow up with f3 blocking the bishop out and the blockading Na4-c5. Black can grab a pawn but he ends up being dominated by the Knight: e.g. 14...Qg6 15.f3 Qxc2 16.Rf2 Qg6 17.Na4 My computer engine slightly prefers Black here but it has obviously never read Nimzowitsch - White will get a nice bind after Nc5 with domination as compensation for the pawn. All I know is in a real game playing against a human Black is going to have problems. Maybe I'm wrong but I think White has to be prepared to give a pawn here and there in this line if required. The Estrin game also looked very safe for White though with no sacrifices, I think only White can win those opposite coloured bishop positions even if the absolute correct result should be a draw


Renet merely says that after 12.Bxg5 Qxg5 13.h4!? Qh5 "Now the pawn on h4 looks a bit strange" and quotes the example game Arnold-Donev 1997 without comment.

It might be significant that the 5. e5 expert Okhotnik has reached the key position after move 11 twice; the first time he played 12 Bxg5 Qxg5 13 g3, but later he switched to the Estrin plan of 12.0-0-0 Ne6 13.Qa4 Bd7 14.Qa3. He won both games.

I was amused by this game, which shows what is, at first sight, a model counter-attacking plan for Black if White goes for the Qd2, 0-0-0 set-up:

Van Tonder,Ronnie - Kobese,Watu (2399) [C56]
RSA m Cape Town (5), 31.07.2002
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.e5 d5 6.Bb5 Ne4 7.Nxd4 Bc5 8.Be3 0-0 9.Bxc6 Bxd4 10.Qxd4 bxc6 11.Nc3 Ng5 12.0-0-0 Ne6 13.Qd2 Rb8 14.f4 f5 15.a3 Qe7 16.Rhg1 Ba6 17.g4?! Rxb2! 18.Kxb2 Rb8+ 0-1

Very neat you might think but in fact White could have fought on with 19 Nb5! after which things are far from clear (to me anyway  Smiley ).

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JamesH
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline



Posts: 43
Location: England
Joined: 06/03/11
Gender: Male
Re: Aggressive way for white against Two Knights Defen
Reply #36 - 06/12/11 at 12:30:54
Post Tools
White can try 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4. 0-0!? Nxe4 (4...Bc5 5.b4 transposes to a kind of evans gambit which you wanted) 5.Nc3! Nxc3 6.dxc3 Be7 7.Qd5 0-0 8.Nxe5 there is level material and white has some attacking chances and more open files, the semi open d file could be useful for example.
  
2251 FIDE
213 ECF
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Fllg
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 647
Joined: 05/30/09
Gender: Male
Re: Aggressive way for white against Two Knights Defen
Reply #35 - 06/12/11 at 11:36:20
Post Tools
It´s clear that after 5.e5 d5 6.Bb5 Ne4 is the most natural move but how about the less common 6... Nd7 intending the weird looking 7.0-0 Be7 8.Bxc6 bxc6 9.Nxd4 Nb8. The good score for Black is probably due to the better rating for the second player in many games but it seems to be of equal worth to 6... Ne4.

Any opinions?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6
Topic Tools
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo
 
  « Board Index ‹ Board Top  

ChessPub Forum » Powered by YaBB 2.6.12!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2026. All Rights Reserved.

Valid RSS Valid XHTML Valid CSS Powered by Perl Source Forge