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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C56-C59: Aggressive white play against 2 Knights (Read 66458 times)
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Re: Aggressive way for white against Two Knights Defen
Reply #19 - 06/06/11 at 19:47:22
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MNb wrote on 06/06/11 at 18:56:03:
Markovich wrote on 06/06/11 at 18:09:29:
Yes, really.  I think that especially with 5.e5 d5 6.Bb5 Ne5 7.Nd4 Bc5, White's game is not so easy.  He's playing a blockading game, while Black's striving to open up with ...f6.  In general I think the latter is easier to handle.

I agree. But you might be amazed how few amateurs as Black dare to play this. So one can make an argument for playing 5.e5 while making sure how to handle 7...Bc5. After 8.Be3 Bd7 9.Bxc6 bxc6 10.Nd2 White has a quick development, so opening up with ...f6 is not a big deal.
Funny enough nobody as White has tried this against me.

That Sveshnikov line always has looked suspicious to me as spending a tempo for the relatively useless c2-c3 doesn't feel good.

Yeah, the only time I've ever played that 7. ...Bc5, I was black. And white responded with Be3, exactly like you said, rather than go in for the more tactical game, which is exactly how I'd play it as white, too.

And yeah, that Giuoco Piano line isn't the most aggressive, but it serves its purpose. You'd be amazed how often my opponents find a way to vary from book before we even get that far. Like I said, it's mostly just lower rated opponents who play e5 on the first move. Below 1400, everyone plays both sides of 1. e4 e5. But it's like once people break 1400, they start experimenting with other openings, and very few ever come back.
  

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Re: Aggressive way for white against Two Knights Defen
Reply #18 - 06/06/11 at 18:56:03
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Markovich wrote on 06/06/11 at 18:09:29:
Yes, really.  I think that especially with 5.e5 d5 6.Bb5 Ne5 7.Nd4 Bc5, White's game is not so easy.  He's playing a blockading game, while Black's striving to open up with ...f6.  In general I think the latter is easier to handle.

I agree. But you might be amazed how few amateurs as Black dare to play this. So one can make an argument for playing 5.e5 while making sure how to handle 7...Bc5. After 8.Be3 Bd7 9.Bxc6 bxc6 10.Nd2 White has a quick development, so opening up with ...f6 is not a big deal.
Funny enough nobody as White has tried this against me.

That Sveshnikov line always has looked suspicious to me as spending a tempo for the relatively useless c2-c3 doesn't feel good.
  

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Re: Aggressive way for white against Two Knights Defen
Reply #17 - 06/06/11 at 18:09:29
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Yes, really.  I think that especially with 5.e5 d5 6.Bb5 Ne5 7.Nd4 Bc5, White's game is not so easy.  He's playing a blockading game, while Black's striving to open up with ...f6.  In general I think the latter is easier to handle.  My opinion.

I had a 1600-rated student once, a fifth grader (not Abby), who insisted on playing 5.e5.  I kept trying to get him to quit it, but the kid's father kept interfering.
  

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Re: Aggressive way for white against Two Knights Defen
Reply #16 - 06/06/11 at 15:08:46
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Markovich wrote on 06/06/11 at 13:58:17:
Keano wrote on 06/06/11 at 09:54:39:
4.Ng5 is a good move, no doubt, but its difficult to play and requires a lot of knowledge. 4.d3 is the popular GM alternative while for amateurs I would recommend the modern 2 Knights 4.d4 exd4 5.e5!? as leading to interesting positions where White can play for initiative. Check games of Sveshnikov while Nakamura has a couple also.


Basically I agree, but I would only recommend 5.e5 for relatively strong amateur players.  That system isn't so easy to play.  For scholastics and lower-rateds I would recommend instead 5.O-O, which in my view is much more straightforward in the 19th-Century vein that I think these players should follow.


Really? I've played the Italian as white on and off since I was a beginner, and I've been using 4. d4 exd4 5. e5 as my main line against the Two Knights probably since I was around 1300 rating. The fact that I'm almost definitely going to recover the "gambit" pawn on d4 quickly made it seem more straightforward to me than 5. O-O, which seems like it could be a true gambit, though I haven't looked into that line enough to know for sure. 

Also, I play Sveshnikov's 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. e5 against the Giuoco Piano, so I'm getting similar positions in both. I started playing this combination of lines early on, just because it looked like an easy way to get an open game with no study. Because I rarely see e5 from higher level opponents, almost all of my opponents in these lines are rated much lower than my 1700, so they're good enough, even if they're not the most theoretically respected variations at top level. 
  

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Re: Aggressive way for white against Two Knights Defen
Reply #15 - 06/06/11 at 13:58:17
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Keano wrote on 06/06/11 at 09:54:39:
4.Ng5 is a good move, no doubt, but its difficult to play and requires a lot of knowledge. 4.d3 is the popular GM alternative while for amateurs I would recommend the modern 2 Knights 4.d4 exd4 5.e5!? as leading to interesting positions where White can play for initiative. Check games of Sveshnikov while Nakamura has a couple also.


Basically I agree, but I would only recommend 5.e5 for relatively strong amateur players.  That system isn't so easy to play.  For scholastics and lower-rateds I would recommend instead 5.O-O, which in my view is much more straightforward in the 19th-Century vein that I think these players should follow.
  

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Re: Aggressive way for white against Two Knights Defen
Reply #14 - 06/06/11 at 09:54:39
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4.Ng5 is a good move, no doubt, but its difficult to play and requires a lot of knowledge. 4.d3 is the popular GM alternative while for amateurs I would recommend the modern 2 Knights 4.d4 exd4 5.e5!? as leading to interesting positions where White can play for initiative. Check games of Sveshnikov while Nakamura has a couple also.
  
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Re: Aggressive way for white against Two Knights Defen
Reply #13 - 06/05/11 at 20:57:41
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I know that some gambiteers (Gary Good in a couple of his articles that I've linked to in the past) think 4.Ng5 is a poor response for a gambit player but I don't agree, it depends on why one likes playing gambits.  If the aim is to get a tactical and unbalanced position then 4.Ng5 against the Two Knights makes a lot of sense.  And like you say, it's good practice to get experience of being on both sides of the gambit situation.

Also if you're playing at a relatively low level (below about 2000 or so) some opponents may play 4...d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 in which case White ends up the gambiteer after 6.d4 or the riskier 6.Nxf7.
  
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Re: Aggressive way for white against Two Knights Defen
Reply #12 - 06/05/11 at 17:28:05
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Apologies for the pedantry but 4 Ng5 is surely an exceedingly aggressive move Smiley

More generally think its a good idea for gambit obsessives to play it, to teach that you can play when material up for an initiative.
  
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Re: Aggressive way for white against Two Knights Defen
Reply #11 - 06/05/11 at 15:33:44
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cynima wrote on 06/05/11 at 15:08:38:
I think I will play 4.Ng5

Any advice, where to start?
Maybe some free sites on the internet, what books to you recommend?

Thanks!

Pinski's book is not bad .it's a good starting point
  

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Re: Aggressive way for white against Two Knights Defen
Reply #10 - 06/05/11 at 15:08:38
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I think I will play 4.Ng5

Any advice, where to start?
Maybe some free sites on the internet, what books to you recommend?

Thanks!
  
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Re: Aggressive way for white against Two Knights Defen
Reply #9 - 06/03/11 at 12:37:17
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SWJediknight wrote on 06/03/11 at 08:24:03:
Stefan Bucker has recommended 4.d4 exd4 5.0-0 Nxe4 6.Re1 d5 7.Bxd5 (Canal's line 7.Nc3 doesn't work due to the forced line 7...dxc3 8.Bxd5 Be6 9.Bxe4 Qxd1 10.Rxd1 cxb2 11.Bxb2 f6 =+) 7...Qxd5 8.Nc3 with the gambit idea Nxe4, Neg5, Nxe6 and then Bg5/Re4.  It doesn't promise White a theoretical advantage, but it's in the Max Lange style and avoids Black's drawish options like 8...Qh5 9.Nxe4 Be6 10.Bg5 Bd6 11.Nxd6+ cxd6 12.Bf4 Qd5.



I do not think this is a good variation for white, in fact I like this variation very much for black Smiley

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.00 Nxe4 6.Re1 d5 7.Bxd5 Qxd5 8.Nc3 Qh5! (of course other moves are also possible, but this move is annoying for white imo)
Black has all the fun in this variation
That is not what I want 
I do not like 5.e5 either, so I guess 4.d4 is no option for me ...

But anyway thanks!

Smiley
  
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Re: Aggressive way for white against Two Knights Defen
Reply #8 - 06/03/11 at 08:24:03
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Stefan Bucker has recommended 4.d4 exd4 5.0-0 Nxe4 6.Re1 d5 7.Bxd5 (Canal's line 7.Nc3 doesn't work due to the forced line 7...dxc3 8.Bxd5 Be6 9.Bxe4 Qxd1 10.Rxd1 cxb2 11.Bxb2 f6 =+) 7...Qxd5 8.Nc3 with the gambit idea Nxe4, Neg5, Nxe6 and then Bg5/Re4.  It doesn't promise White a theoretical advantage, but it's in the Max Lange style and avoids Black's drawish options like 8...Qh5 9.Nxe4 Be6 10.Bg5 Bd6 11.Nxd6+ cxd6 12.Bf4 Qd5.

However I have little doubt that 4.Ng5 is White's most critical response.  It's worth noting that in the 4...d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5+ line White sometimes lets the pawn on h2 drop off in return for attacking chances, eventually castling on the queenside after b3 and Bb2, so it's not always Black who does all of the attacking.  But whatever happens, with 4.Ng5 you get an unbalanced game just as you do with the Evans.  You may need to check out 6...Bd7!? as it has been getting some favourable attention recently.
  
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Re: Aggressive way for white against Two Knights Defen
Reply #7 - 06/03/11 at 00:52:10
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I like 4.d4 exd4 5.e5 d5 (Ne4 at once also looks good) 6.Bb5 Ne4 7.Nxd4 Bc5 as Black.

The good news about 4.Ng5 is that we have proved an advantage for White against the Fritz-Ulvestadt with d5 5.exd5 b5 6.Bf1 Nd4 7.c3 Nxd5 8.cxd4 Qg5 9.Bxb5+.

So if anybody wants to play the Italian he/she can focus on 5...Na5 6.Bb5+.
  

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Re: Aggressive way for white against Two Knights Defen
Reply #6 - 06/02/11 at 20:55:47
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Personally, I play the Evan's and also enjoy the 4 d4 exd4 5 e5 line.  I play the Two Knights as black and would not really want to be on the white side of 4 Ng5.  Not that it's bad, just seems like a lot more fun for black to me.
  
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Re: Aggressive way for white against Two Knights Defen
Reply #5 - 06/02/11 at 19:41:26
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cynima wrote on 06/02/11 at 19:14:26:

I like to play aggressive chess, activity is EVERYTHING in chess, you can only win with active pieces.


OT: That is debatable. Reading the book "Chess for Zebras" the Author Jonathan Rowson makes a good case for playing successfully in defensive style...

On Topic: There is a book by Palkövi I think and of course Estrin. The most recent source may be the Chessbase DVD by Lawrence Trent which I haven´t seen.
  
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