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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C56-C59: Aggressive white play against 2 Knights (Read 66473 times)
ghenghisclown
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Re: C56-C59: Aggressive white play against 2 Knights
Reply #79 - 10/07/11 at 06:28:26
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proustiskeen wrote on 09/23/11 at 20:14:55:
Can anyone recommend any model games or theoretical articles with this 6...d5 idea?  I didn't immediately see any in the chesspublishing archives.

 


Tournier, Math vs Bacrot Nice, France 2011

Vajda vs Fressinet Bastia, France 2010

Pourkashiyan vs Harika, D. Kolkata 2009

Denisov vs Kislik Budapest 2009
  

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proustiskeen
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Re: C56-C59: Aggressive white play against 2 Knights
Reply #78 - 09/23/11 at 20:14:55
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Can anyone recommend any model games or theoretical articles with this 6...d5 idea?  I didn't immediately see any in the chesspublishing archives.
  
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Keano
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Re: C56-C59: Aggressive white play against 2 Knights
Reply #77 - 09/16/11 at 08:13:46
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Quite possibly, Tiviakov has experimented with various different move-orders. Thinking about it though, Radjabov's 6.Nbd2 seems more of a deterrent to the ...d5 break than 6.Bb3. The whole thing is a move-order head wrecker because after 6.Nbd2 later on White must go h3 before Re1, although I can't immediately see any issue with this I remember Emms and Kindermann both reccommended the early Re1 move-order for some reason or other  Huh
  
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MNb
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Re: C56-C59: Aggressive white play against 2 Knights
Reply #76 - 09/15/11 at 14:15:56
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The weird thing is that, when playing an early ...d5, the Bishop on c5 is actually worse placed than on e7.
Hasn't Tiviakov played like this as White?
  

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Keano
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Re: C56-C59: Aggressive white play against 2 Knights
Reply #75 - 09/15/11 at 14:11:35
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TopNotch wrote on 08/09/11 at 05:26:35:

Radjabov in the latest word has altered his move order for White radically, or perhaps I should say Radjacally, he goes Nbd2 before c3 or Bb3. This move order is extremely rare, and goes to show to what extent players are going to avoid the plan I mentioned.  


Another rare move-order was employed by Movsesian with I think the same idea of rendering the early ...d5 break less effective:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. O-O Nf6 5. d3 O-O 6. Bb3

Here Black can still try 6...d5 but it should be less effective when White has played Bb3 instead of c3. It does commit White to systems with early kingside castling though obviously.


  
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Re: Aggressive way for white against Two Knights Defen
Reply #74 - 08/10/11 at 09:53:18
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GabrielGale wrote on 07/05/11 at 04:23:19:
My mistake, MNb, I mistakenly saw Gupta and Short's game thought it was Gupta and Jones game. Yes, you are right, the Jones-Gupta game is not available form Chess-Results.


Amazing - Nigel Short played this line as well against Gupta? Looks like the Commonwealth was a bit of a theme tournament for this variation.
  
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Re: C56-C59: Aggressive white play against 2 Knights
Reply #73 - 08/10/11 at 01:03:36
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@Toppy: Thanks for that info.
  

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Re: C56-C59: Aggressive white play against 2 Knights
Reply #72 - 08/09/11 at 12:37:17
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TopNotch wrote on 08/09/11 at 05:26:35:
Lately though I have added 4...Bc5 to my rep, I used to think that the bishop was misplaced on this square, [Yeah, I realise what a Sloughteresque statement that sounds like, but what to do.]

You already wrote it yourself. 4...Be7 in several cases allows to play a la Marshall. 4...Bc5 doesn't. Moreover, if White plays really quietly, 4...Be7 allows for preparing ...f5. "Misplaced" might be a bit strong, but the appearance that Bc5 is more active is deceptive.
Radjabov's move order - postponing c2-c3 - in the end just transposes. Perhaps White should apply the same move order after 4...Be7 as well.
  

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Stefan Buecker
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Re: C56-C59: Aggressive white play against 2 Knights
Reply #71 - 08/09/11 at 08:43:46
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TopNotch wrote on 08/09/11 at 04:56:00:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/08/11 at 20:55:52:
Nakamura? Gunsberg rotates in his grave.

Sorry guys, when I put up the post I couldn't remember the name of the variation, and I was too lazy to check. I knew that Naka thumped Friedel recently with the line so presto I renamed it. Wink
Again apologies.

Daniel Stellwagen's successes with 8.Bd3 and his inspiring article in SOS #9 have revived the forgotten line, so I don't argue that Gunsberg has the older rights or something. Whether it becomes the Gunsberg-Stellwagen Variation or something shorter, we will see. - In Chess Openings (1895) Gunsberg wrote: "8.Bd3 has been attempted principally by Gunsberg v. Tschigorin, and Gunsberg v. Lasker, with a result which was not encouraging." Another book mentions older games with 8.Bd3, starting in 1862. 

In the Doros-Beliavsky game which you give, Nb4 isn't too far away from other (important) games. Sometimes the Nb4 is played later, sometimes it goes via f4, but the position with Nxd3 cxd3 has happened before. f6 is unusual, yes. The jury on Bd3 is still out, maybe White hasn't much, but it's very interesting. 
  
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TopNotch
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Re: C56-C59: Aggressive white play against 2 Knights
Reply #70 - 08/09/11 at 05:26:35
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Markovich wrote on 08/08/11 at 17:48:13:
TopNotch wrote on 08/08/11 at 03:10:03:
It would be nice for Gawain to do an update on the Scotch Gambit around his wins over Gupta and David Howell.

As a confirmed TKD player I would love to get his take on the line he played against Gupta. The line he used vs Howell shocked me a bit, I too had been preparing this to use as a surprise weapon for white in upcoming tournaments, but upon closer scrutiny came to the conclusion that it offered White less than nothing. Funnily enough this was another line suggested on one of Dzinzi's early DVD's.

The move 4.Ng5 is a good move in theory, but not in praxis Smiley Black has a ferocious initiative OTB and although White sometimes prevails, its always an unweidly mess and that suits Black. Interestingly Nigel Short avoided 4.Ng5 in the commonwealth championship and I think it has to do with the Coleman Variation - 8.Qf3 Rb8 9.Bd3 Bd6! after which White has to walk a tight rope to avoid a miniature. Nakamura's 8.Bd3 is well met by Nd5 with good comp for the pawn. None of the recent DVD's [Trent, Davies, Martin, Dzindzi] or Books [CBM's] will help you against the suggested lines as they are either not covered or covered superficially in passing.

Mikhailevski will never cover these lines, as he snobbishly covers only elite events to the exclusion of everything else, [Marshall Berlin Petroff and Scotch Game being par for the course]. So for varieties sake and for the rare chance to see how the other 1.e4 e5 half lives its over to you Gawain Wink  

Toppy


Nice to hear from you.  It's always good to hear what a strong player thinks, but even better when it confirms your own opinion.

But say, what do you do after the almost inevitable 4.d3?


Good to be heard from.

I normally plump for 4...Be7 against 4.d3, and usually end up by transposition into Ant-Marshall lines, go figure.

Lately though I have added 4...Bc5 to my rep, I used to think that the bishop was misplaced on this square, [Yeah, I realise what a Sloughteresque statement that sounds like, but what to do.] and I still don't fully trust that whole 4...Bc5 to a7 business despite its popularity and recommendation by Gustafson on his excellent DVD. I think Black has a safer and easier to play position in the 4...Be7.

Having said all that my interest in 4...Bc5 has to do with Shirov's and Harikrishna interpretation  of it, where subtlety and nuance is dispensed with in favor of the no frills no nonsense approach of Castling quickly followed by d5 against virtually whatever White does. This treatment has  proven very effective and has given White a real headache in the last 5 years or so, so much so, that Emms and Kindermann both suggest fancy move orders to try and avoid it, Martin on his DVD confessed he had no idea what to suggest for White and Davies on his DVD was also stumped. What can I say, I'm sold.

Radjabov in the latest word has altered his move order for White radically, or perhaps I should say Radjacally, he goes Nbd2 before c3 or Bb3. This move order is extremely rare, and goes to show to what extent players are going to avoid the plan I mentioned.  

Bye for now.

Tops Smiley

Post Script: Fresh off the presses - Doros vs. Beliavsky, 2011

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5 c6 7.dxc6 bc6 8.Bd3 Nd5 9.Nf3 Nb4 [New for me, but is it any good?] 10.0-0 Nxd3 11.cxd3 f6 [Not sure how to punctuate this move yet] 12.Nc3 [I don't like this move. At first glance 12.d4 exd4 13.Qa4 looks more challenging, but who knows, I will have to fall back on the old cliche - More practical tests required.] 0-1 in 34 moves. And the pendulum continues to swing.
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: C56-C59: Aggressive white play against 2 Knights
Reply #69 - 08/09/11 at 04:56:00
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/08/11 at 20:55:52:
Nakamura? Gunsberg rotates in his grave.


Sorry guys, when I put up the post I couldn't remember the name of the variation, and I was too lazy to check. I knew that Naka thumped Friedel recently with the line so presto I renamed it. Wink

Again apologies.
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: C56-C59: Aggressive white play against 2 Knights
Reply #68 - 08/08/11 at 20:55:52
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Nakamura? Gunsberg rotates in his grave.
  
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Re: C56-C59: Aggressive white play against 2 Knights
Reply #67 - 08/08/11 at 19:31:11
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Perhaps Daniel Stellwagen is one who will be enlightened to know that 8. Bd3 is now "Nakamura's."
  
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Re: C56-C59: Aggressive white play against 2 Knights
Reply #66 - 08/08/11 at 17:48:13
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TopNotch wrote on 08/08/11 at 03:10:03:
It would be nice for Gawain to do an update on the Scotch Gambit around his wins over Gupta and David Howell.

As a confirmed TKD player I would love to get his take on the line he played against Gupta. The line he used vs Howell shocked me a bit, I too had been preparing this to use as a surprise weapon for white in upcoming tournaments, but upon closer scrutiny came to the conclusion that it offered White less than nothing. Funnily enough this was another line suggested on one of Dzinzi's early DVD's.

The move 4.Ng5 is a good move in theory, but not in praxis Smiley Black has a ferocious initiative OTB and although White sometimes prevails, its always an unweidly mess and that suits Black. Interestingly Nigel Short avoided 4.Ng5 in the commonwealth championship and I think it has to do with the Coleman Variation - 8.Qf3 Rb8 9.Bd3 Bd6! after which White has to walk a tight rope to avoid a miniature. Nakamura's 8.Bd3 is well met by Nd5 with good comp for the pawn. None of the recent DVD's [Trent, Davies, Martin, Dzindzi] or Books [CBM's] will help you against the suggested lines as they are either not covered or covered superficially in passing.

Mikhailevski will never cover these lines, as he snobbishly covers only elite events to the exclusion of everything else, [Marshall Berlin Petroff and Scotch Game being par for the course]. So for varieties sake and for the rare chance to see how the other 1.e4 e5 half lives its over to you Gawain Wink  

Toppy


Nice to hear from you.  It's always good to hear what a strong player thinks, but even better when it confirms your own opinion.

But say, what do you do after the almost inevitable 4.d3?
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Keano
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Re: C56-C59: Aggressive white play against 2 Knights
Reply #65 - 08/08/11 at 08:23:54
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It would indeed be great to get an update by Sir Gawaine.

I'll let you into a bit of a secret, what worries me more from Whites point of view are the "side-lines" 5...Ng4 and 5...Ne4 instead of the main-line and much more popular 5...d5. When I dabbled in this line myself those were the ones that gave me headaches.
  
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