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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) The thinking proces (Read 18587 times)
Doirse
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Re: The thinking proces
Reply #22 - 04/27/18 at 13:18:15
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Jupp53 wrote on 04/27/18 at 11:49:11:
With the recommendation of starting with the candidate move connected is a big oversight.


I was referring to the specific problem the OP identified of recalculating the same line over and over, which only comes AFTER you select moves to calculate.

Jupp53 wrote on 04/27/18 at 11:49:11:
Being in a game and solving or exercising over a position is not the same. Natural human thinking starts with the perception of features of a situation. Connected to features is an action. This action is done mentally and the result of the action will be evaluated.

I admit, this is very abstract. For chess this means: You start thinking, if you're not content with the evaluation of a position in a game or you start thinking, if you see a diagram.


Not abstract at all.  I agree that you have to have ideas about the position first, and then you look at specific moves.  

But I think we're talking about different things.  I'm using "calculation" in the very specific meaning of how to navigate complicated tactical positions, or even a single line.  I think you're using "calculation" to mean how to think in general (including quiet positions).  Quiet positions don't require calculation other than to blunder check.

Jupp53 wrote on 04/27/18 at 11:49:11:
The good part of the "candidate move theory" is the discipline it carries. That's why it survives. The bad part is condensed in the sentence: I'm no tree.


The general process I described of thinking of moves, calculating each one, and choosing one to play, is not a theory.  You're referring to Kotov's method of calculation which says that you calculate each branch of each tree once and only once, and do not jump to other branches or trees until you complete the one you are on.  That has been the focus of much criticism because nobody does that in reality.  It is very hard to stay with a line when you "learn" something about the position and your mind jumps back to a previous line that might benefit from this new insight.  But it is good to try and stay disciplined during training, just don't over do it!
  
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Jupp53
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Re: The thinking proces
Reply #21 - 04/27/18 at 11:49:11
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With the recommendation of starting with the candidate move connected is a big oversight.

Being in a game and solving or exercising over a position is not the same. Natural human thinking starts with the perception of features of a situation. Connected to features is an action. This action is done mentally and the result of the action will be evaluated.

I admit, this is very abstract. For chess this means: You start thinking, if you're not content with the evaluation of a position in a game or you start thinking, if you see a diagram.

The good part of the "candidate move theory" is the discipline it carries. That's why it survives. The bad part is condensed in the sentence: I'm no tree.
  

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Doirse
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Re: The thinking proces
Reply #20 - 04/26/18 at 17:11:24
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Larsen_fan wrote on 07/03/11 at 13:25:35:
I often find myself calculating the same variations over and over and I think I'm using my time wrong. 


Very old thread but since folks are still commenting I thought I'd chime in. 

I would strongly endorse doing "Stoyko" exercises.  Years ago I also felt the need to improve my calculation skills, and did hundreds of these.  Essentially you take a complicated tactical position, write out all of your thinking, and compare your solution to the answer.  At first it is very hard and your thinking is messy, but you definitely get better over time.  

A checklist can certainly help keep you focused, especially when you're first starting.  The general process is:

1 identify candidate moves, 
2 calculate each candidate, 
3 evaluate the final position, and
4 choose the move with the best (or least bad) evaluation.

You could have checklists for each step, but that is likely overkill.  You mentioned that you're repeating the same line over and over, which could mean that you are not doing a concrete evaluation of the final position in each line (step 3), or you might "think" you're missing resources for yourself or your opponent during line calculation (step 2).

It is more likely that you're stuck recalculating lines on step 2, and Stoyko will definitely help you there because by writing out all of your thinking, you can see exactly what you are doing wrong.  There is a certain logic inherent to forced play, and you CAN identify your mistakes and improve.

For example, are you missing defensive replies by your opponent?  Let's say you see a check and that the king has two moves, and you calculate each one...but doh, you didn't "see" that he can also block.  Here's the important part...did you LOOK for his blocks but not see it?  Or did you not even think to look?  Very different problems, but both can be easily fixed by being more diligent.

Also, you can get stuck on the same line if you are absolutely convinced that you have something...a tactic, or mate...something that will win you the brilliancy prize if you can only find the right move.  This is MUCH more interesting.  In a real game, you have to be practical and make yourself move if you can't find the solution in a certain amount of time.  In a practice position, this is the kind of thing puzzles are made out of and you can just drill the kinds of tactical shots you find yourself missing (are you missing quiet moves, backwards moves, do you have blindspots for discoveries, etc).

So bottom line is to use Stoyko exercises to diagnose your calculation problems...checklists for certain steps can definitely be useful.
« Last Edit: 04/27/18 at 11:45:49 by Doirse »  
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rosshickers
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Re: The thinking proces
Reply #19 - 01/31/18 at 15:06:47
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Here are a few tips to answer these questions:

Focus on what you are doing,not what you are solving.
Be clear. If your grandma doesn’t understand it then rewrite it.
Be specific. Don’t boil the ocean.
Focus on what you offer, not how great you are.
Once you have clarity on these, move on to the brainstorms.
  

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Re: The thinking proces
Reply #18 - 09/06/16 at 14:36:43
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Yes, learning to think is the issue. I fully appreciate the importance of well annotated games modeling the concept of learning to think. This is an indispensable aspect of the process. I also think, ideally, this should follow (not precede) methods of chess thinking. 

I also realize that most of us did not 'get it' this way. 

So, from my pedagogical perspective, instruction in the way to think in chess should precede the modeling of the forms of chess thought. The modeling should follow the instruction as soon as possible. The student should be given an exercise suited to the instruction and modeling as soon as possible thereafter.

Next there is feedback on the learning process. A trainer goes over a game with you and he/she guides/corrects the learner through the thinking process that's already in place or partially in place.

Now, let me digress a bit from this. 

In The Chess Instructor, Controversial Thoughts by Mark Dvoretsky, p.33, second paragraph, right column, he states the player must have a mastery of the general principles of searching for a move in a variety of situations. 

Well, that is a bulging mouthful for sure and something I would like to open up for a continuing conversation here. Dvoretsky covers over this huge topic with hints like know how to attack, defend, covert an advantage, and  win from equal positions. 

He alludes to purposeful training arising from analysis of one's games but what would be the generic ingredients needed necessary to come up with good candidate moves for a position. I've assumed this is what he was getting at   in this part of his article. 
  
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Re: The thinking proces
Reply #17 - 09/06/16 at 12:21:00
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My opinion and experience about  thinking process - all grandmasters think the same way, but the difference is that when you start thinking new way you to it mechanic way where GMs do it automatic way. Searching candidate moves, then analysing threw the lines of each candidate move and comparing the ending positions between all the candidate moves. Even 2100 players do it same way, they just don't notice it. But the difference is that GM's will find better candidate moves or calculate the lines deeper. A lot of times when 2700 GM wins against other 2700 GM the problem was not that one has missed something but rather the evaluation of ending variation. That's my experience of this question. Smiley
  
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Jupp53
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Re: The thinking proces
Reply #16 - 09/06/16 at 11:49:58
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+1

If annotated by masters they show a elaborated human thinking process. If annotated by a weaker player they show the méli-mélo possible.
  

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Re: The thinking proces
Reply #15 - 09/06/16 at 08:50:04
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Sylvester wrote on 09/06/16 at 02:24:00:
Other books to consider:
The Process of Decision Making (Vol 1 and 2) by Phillip Ochman
(...)


I'd really not recommend that one : from the excerpts I read and the author's rating, I think it's completely off the mark.

Completely agree with ErictheRed that it's much better to try and develop the natural way the human mind works in chess, which means seeing and projecting patterns (aka. intuition/calculation).

If you really need some hand holding, then why not read some Heisman (although you could pretty much sum it up as "watch for your opponent's threats"), but your best investment might just be to read well annotated game collections from the past  Smiley
  

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Re: The thinking proces
Reply #14 - 09/06/16 at 03:13:34
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Forget a structured thinking process.  You're a human, learn to think like a human.
  
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Re: The thinking proces
Reply #13 - 09/06/16 at 02:24:00
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Other books to consider:
The Process of Decision Making (Vol 1 and 2) by Phillip Ochman
How to Think in Chess by Jan Przewoznik and Marek Soszynski
Rethinking the Chess Pieces by Andrew Soltis
All the work by Dan Heisman as prerequisites for the above.
  
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Re: The thinking proces
Reply #12 - 08/23/11 at 23:14:05
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I picked up The Seven Deadly Sins of Memory at the library and found it rather useless, full of anecdotes and dubious extrapolations from studies that could mean anything. In fact, I don't really "remember" anything in it.   

I think it's very, very interesting that a master chess player can generally remember a chess game he just played in its entirity while a poor chess player has little idea. If you could somehow translate that idea to something in life, then you could surely remember a lot more in life also. 

But IMHO the main bottleneck for memory in life, or at least the one that you should be most concerned about, is the amount of healthy brain cells you have. Losing your brain cells means losing everything. Diet and lifestyle count for a lot in this regard. 
  
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Re: The thinking proces
Reply #11 - 08/23/11 at 07:13:26
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@Stigma - tks for the sources. About the stages - it would be more psychological to talk about "automatic" instead of "unconscious" which is more a psychoanalytical than a psychological expression.

Back to the question of adoption thinking processes to growing knowledge.

The only winning move for white is 4. Re2-f2 after which you reach the following position:

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

This is a basic pattern. It helps to explain the concept of a "chunk". The beginner and some intermediate players won't see the attack of the rook against the king as a black and a white piece are interfering. Combine this with the defenders rule to stay on the f-line and it's neighbours g and e. You see at once that Bf4 and Bg4 are answered with Ke5+ and Kg5+.

A chunk is a piece of information consisting out of features - here the four pieces on one file and operators or actions to transform the given situation to another one.

If you have worked out the example from the beginning you know that the black bishop on the files a-d and h will lose. With the knowledge of the discovered check in the above position you're able to transform this position with much less thinking than before.

Remember this chunk and look at another position and the text from an article of Jon Tait he linked to yesterday in this forum http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1313620779/55#55

Source ?, p.21:

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

I like this position very much. Five pieces stand between Re1 and Ke8. Yet if Black tries 18. .. Ng6 they remove themselves in quick succession: 19. Nxf7! Bxf7 20.Nxf6+! gxf6 21. Bxc5+ and wins.

You can see the differentiation of a pattern. Depending of the knowledge state the first diagram is more complex (for a beginner) than the second one (for a IM probably). The mental operators - searching the connection of operators and features on the basis of our mind - stay the same. And I hope you can deal the fun Jon Tait had and has about this position.

Rethink all this and it becomes obvious, why good chess books and a trainer and the advice of experienced players in this forum b.e will give you more for your chess playing strength than the psychological knowledge.
  

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Re: The thinking proces
Reply #10 - 08/23/11 at 00:40:06
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Btw. I second Jupp53's excellent list of chess psychology sources (I know we've discussed these matters before!).

I only want to add a few books from the chess side of this field that, like De Groot, present actual thinking processes by real players. Both players and cognitive psychologists could take more notice of these:

Avni: The Grandmaster's Mind (mostly GMs; one of my all-time favorite chess books)
Aagaard: Inside the Chess Mind (everything from beginner to world-class GM - and Fritz!)
Heisman: The Improving Chess Thinker (mostly class players, and using De Groot's methods from "Thought and Choice in Chess" to a large extent)
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: The thinking proces
Reply #9 - 08/23/11 at 00:32:54
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Larsen_fan wrote on 07/04/11 at 09:05:01:


But does the realy strong player who learned a specific thinking process "free himself" from that proces as he gets better? or does he still use that proces just in a better way?

If I as a average club player (1726) learn a specific thinking proces how do I work with that process as I improve? Strong players (better than 1726 Wink ): Did you change your "method" of thinking or have you just become better at what you do? Do you work with one method (e.g. Soltis) or do you get inspiration from many places and work out your own method?

best,
Larsen_fan


As long as you're improving just by playing and studying chess, your thinking process just develops without you being aware of it. It only comes to light when challenged; when a coach, author or other player thinks completely differently about a position.

With a concrete thinking process that you're trying to learn and implement, the change process should follow the "Four stages of competence" model from psychology: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence

1. Unconscious incompetence 
2. Conscious incompetence
3. Conscious competence
4. Unconscious competence

Someone deciding to learn a thinking process is at stage 2: Doing some things "wrong", but at least aware of that! But note that the end goal is not 3., consciously running through a process or checklist every time you're on move, but rather 4. where you have practiced a process consciously for so long that in the end you're using it unconsciously, automatically (and therefore faster).

You can then add new elements of both knowledge and process in the same way; at first they will be conscious and time-consuming but eventually unconscious and fast. For most people this requires working hard (maybe even exclusively) on one part of one's game for a while, something GM Smirnov recommends in his courses. So "freeing oneself from the process" actually happens when it's still operating but you no longer notice you're using it. Much like any other complex skill like tying shoelaces or driving a car become automatic over time.

Concretely, a lot of the things I now do automatically come from patterns I've built up from Silman's strategy books and lots of tactics training. (I never consistently followed Silman's concrete planning process from RYC 3 though, and in the 4th edition he abandoned it as too confusing to many people). I also picked up some ideas from Tisdall's "Improve Your Chess Now" on which candidate move to analyze first in different kinds of positions (attacking vs defending). And I routinely analyze the most forcing moves (for both sides) first in any tactical position. In the future I should try to develop and automate more efficient calculation. I'm also keen on the "falsification" view of chess: My task at the board is to find out what's wrong with the move I want to play, and only if I can't find anything wrong despite my best effort I'll play it! I read Dvoretsky on prophylactic thinking when I was as weak as 1500 and that influences my thinking a lot, to the extent that I sometimes play bad moves because I try to prevent something my opponent didn't intend or doesn't have to play. So I need to deepen my understanding of when prophylactic moves are warranted.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Jupp53
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Re: The thinking proces
Reply #8 - 08/22/11 at 20:48:16
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The topic had a short discussion about thinking in trees. To this there's a good remark from Dvoretzki in his actual column at chesscafe.com directly at the beginning of the article. 

http://www.chesscafe.com/dvoretsky/dvoretsky.htm

Larsen_fan wrote on 07/04/11 at 09:05:01:


But does the realy strong player who learned a specific thinking process "free himself" from that proces as he gets better? or does he still use that proces just in a better way?

If I as a average club player (1726) learn a specific thinking proces how do I work with that process as I improve? Strong players (better than 1726 Wink ): Did you change your "method" of thinking or have you just become better at what you do? Do you work with one method (e.g. Soltis) or do you get inspiration from many places and work out your own method?

best,
Larsen_fan


After loooooong thinking about this here are my two cents (and maybe they will be devaluated in a further discussion):

In short - it's very improbable to use different general thinking methods in chess than in the rest of our lives. (Evolution didn't build us for chess.)

We use judgement, knowledge, searching strategies, memory, attention .... This gets more evolved and elaborated with the work we put in and is affected by biological consequences of aging.

Take the example of Sigbert Tarrasch in "Das Schachspiel" 1931, Diagram 52, p. 71 Here my translation (please correct!):

" Rook against Bishop

This ending is mostly draw. Only if the kings are in opposition (always a dangerous situation for the defender) and on a field different to the colour of the bishop and the defending kings stands at the boards border and the attacking side is to move (else the defending king would escape from the unpleasant vis-ŕ-vis), then there are mate threats possible with synchronous attacks against the bishop and the game is reguarly won. (An exception are some corner positions, which cannot be won.) Other winning position are rare exceptions."


First direct the attention to the thinking process described here. Tarrasch explains with words and gives a complex rule which would help to construct  a lot of winning positions for the attacking side. He points to the fact of exceptions (connected to a feature - king in the corner - and some other) and only then he starts to give lines. (This is his method, which made him to such a great author and annotator.)

Then he introduces this diagram, which is part of many works about basic endgames:

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

First he gives again verbal explanations and then a line of two plies and then again general comments with lines.

He states the duty of white to attack the bishop for preventing the escape of the black king.

After 1.Rg7-g3 Bf3-e4

he remarks about the bishop, that his best defense is staying in the line of the king or the neighbour line. Then he gives some (easy to find) lines how the bishop will be lost in case of other moves than Be2 or Be4.

continuing with 2. Rg3-e3 Be4-g2 3. Re3-e2 Bg2-f3 (or f1) is easy to find at your level.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

Now it comes to your question. Work out the next white move (best without moving pieces) and find a verbal reasoning, why this move is the only one and what kind of known motifs (or patterns) you'll find there.

You'll work out a new chunk and deepen your knowledge.
(This won't be anything new and useful for those knowing the move.)
« Last Edit: 08/23/11 at 06:36:19 by Jupp53 »  

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