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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle (Read 107253 times)
Stefan Buecker
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #150 - 01/30/21 at 14:46:56
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Mihail Marin explains the origin of "Indian Openings" on eleven pages in an article titled "Warum 'Indisch'?" in the German magazine Schach 2/2021, mixing ancient games played between John Cochrane and Moheschunder Bannerjee with modern examples of typical motives. He even adds a hint that Cochrane's unpublished manuscript can be found online at the Cleveland Public Library. Highly recommended.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #149 - 01/07/16 at 12:39:41
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I see that the same question (when/where exactly did Breyer suggest the retreat Nc6-b8 in the Ruy Lopez?) had been discussed at some length here. Since Hans Müller remains the main source for crediting Breyer with the invention of Nc6-b8, here is the original text from Müller's comment on Milic - Spassky, Lyon 1955, in Schach-Echo 1955, p. 247: 

Quote:
Dieser sonderbare, doch wohldurchdachte Rückzug wurde erstmals von dem ungarischen Meister Breyer in einem seiner genialen Eröffnungsessays als Verbesserung der klassischen Tschigorin-Verteidigung empfohlen.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #148 - 01/03/16 at 05:29:24
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Chess historians haven't been able to find the exact source where Gyula Breyer recommended the "Breyer Variation" in the Ruy Lopez. Edward Winter has covered the topic, quoting Iván Bottlik: 

Quote:
A 1955 text by a Viennese contemporary of Breyer, the International Master and renowned theoretician Hans Müller, contains decisive information and confirms that this variation did indeed originate with Breyer. In Schach Echo, 1955, page 247, he writes as follows in explaining a game with the move 9...Nb8: “This strange, though well thought out, retreat was first recommended by the Hungarian master G. Breyer in one of his essays as an improvement on the classical Chigorin Defence.
 
Wikipedia says: 

Quote:
"The Hungarian Julius Breyer had many ideas in advance of his time, and he recommended this strange looking retreat [9...Nb8] as early as 1911." Barden (1963), pp. 15–16.

If 1911 were correct, this eassay couldn't have appeared in Breyer's 1920/21 column in Becsi Magyar Ujsag.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #147 - 12/25/15 at 23:04:45
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Paddy and DMel, thanks (again) for the explanation.
  
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Paddy
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #146 - 12/24/15 at 21:55:21
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It's just a quirk of Italian grammar, for instance my dictionary gives as an example:

"Ho comprato qualche libro" - "I've bought a few books".

So for "qualche altro maestro", the translation "some/a few other masters" is correct. My version:

According to Marshall and some other masters, this is the strongest continuation against the King's Fianchetto, since according to them the immediate action of the pieces is more effective than that of the pawns. In contrast, Alekhine maintains that bringing the knight out in this fashion obstructs the movement of the c-pawn and in particular prevents White from setting up the famous pawn structure with pawns on c3, d4 and e3, which, according to him, is the best way to fight against the King's Fianchetto. Opinions that are still relevant!
  
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DMel
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #145 - 12/24/15 at 20:45:45
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 12/24/15 at 07:59:23:
Many thanks for the help. "Maestro" can be plural?


Nope, you are right that maestro is singular, the plural being maestri. But this expression in particular "qualche altro maestro" strangely translates as "some other masters".
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #144 - 12/24/15 at 11:09:06
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 12/24/15 at 08:05:37:
TonyRo wrote on 12/20/15 at 21:15:44:
I volunteer to put up any ChessPubber traveling to Cleveland. As long as they pass a very detailed background check.  Grin

Maybe I can sneak in over the Canadian border. Once there was someone detained in a US prison, and for some reason he wasn't permitted to get a free issue of Kaissiber.


Was it the one with the Kalashnikov in?  Cheesy
  

"As Mikhail Tal would say ' Let's have a bit of hooliganism! '"

Victor Bologan.
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #143 - 12/24/15 at 08:05:37
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TonyRo wrote on 12/20/15 at 21:15:44:
I volunteer to put up any ChessPubber traveling to Cleveland. As long as they pass a very detailed background check.  Grin

Maybe I can sneak in over the Canadian border. Once there was someone detained in a US prison, and for some reason he wasn't permitted to get a free issue of Kaissiber.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #142 - 12/24/15 at 07:59:23
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DMel wrote on 12/23/15 at 23:59:04:
"According to Marshall and other masters this is the strongest response to the kingside fianchetto, as they consider early piece activity to be more important than pawn structure.
Conversely, Alekhine thinks that blocking the c pawn with such a knight move makes c3-d4-e3 impossible, and he considers such a formation to be the ideal one against the kingside fianchetto.  Valuable opinions!"

Many thanks for the help. "Maestro" can be plural? 

DMel wrote on 12/23/15 at 23:59:04:
(the last sentence is actually a bit bizarre but I suppose he means that both opinions sound reasonable to him)
 
Yes, the modern view (of Colle players at least) is that Black's fianchetto is one of the soundest replies. - In Marshall's books Chess Openings (1904) or the Swindles there is nothing on 3.Nc3.
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #141 - 12/23/15 at 23:59:04
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 12/22/15 at 15:24:47:
Secondo Marshall e qualche altro maestro è questa la piu forte continuazione contro il Fianchetto di Re, essendo secondo loro, piu efficace l' azione immediata dei pezzi di quella dei pedoni. All' opposto Alekhine sostiene che il Cav. cosi giuocato inceppa il movimento del P.A.D. e particolamente impedisce la famosa constellazione dei pedoni c3, d4, e3, che, secondo lui, e il modo migliore per combattere il Fianchetto di Re. Opinioni che si valgono!


"According to Marshall and other masters this is the strongest response to the kingside fianchetto, as they consider early piece activity to be more important than pawn structure.
Conversely, Alekhine thinks that blocking the c pawn with such a knight move makes c3-d4-e3 impossible, and he considers such a formation to be the ideal one against the kingside fianchetto.  Valuable opinions!" (the last sentence is actually a bit bizarre but I suppose he means that both opinions sound reasonable to him)
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #140 - 12/22/15 at 15:24:47
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Paddy wrote on 12/21/15 at 19:01:56:
Hmm, the plan of capturing d4xc5 followed by Nf3-d2-b3 was played in Yates-Capablanca, New York 1924, but with Capa playing 6 h3 instead of 6 Be2. 

After 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nf3 g6, the move 3 Nc3 was played three times in that tournament, although it came in for criticism by Alekhine in the tournament book. The first to play 3 Nc3 in the New York event was Ed. Lasker, in Round 1 against Maroczy, who allowed transposition to what we now call the Pirc.

In Die Hypermoderne Schachpartie, Tartakower describes 3 Nc3 as "Marshalls Zug", although Tartakower himself had played 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nf3 g6 3 Nc3 d5 4 Bf4 against V. Wahltuch at London 1922.

6 Be2 is often seen as the defining move of the so-called "Barry Attack". True, Capablanca - Yates, New York 1924, deserves a mention in spite of its 6.h3 - if only as part of a development. In his comments in the tournament book, Alekhine prefers 6.Bd3. "Euwe" has 6 h3 as his main line, and likes 6.Be2 more than 6.Bd3. You are right, 6.Be2 has many fathers. It's so much easier to find an uncontroversial name for 6.Nb5: Bogoljubow Attack, after Bogoljubow - Rellstab, Bad Aachen 1935. 

Tartakower's remark "Marshalls Zug" in 1925 is a puzzle. In Salvioli's La Partita d'Oggi (1928) I find this on 3 Nc3: 
Quote:
Secondo Marshall e qualche altro maestro è questa la piu forte continuazione contro il Fianchetto di Re, essendo secondo loro, piu efficace l' azione immediata dei pezzi di quella dei pedoni. All' opposto Alekhine sostiene che il Cav. cosi giuocato inceppa il movimento del P.A.D. e particolamente impedisce la famosa constellazione dei pedoni c3, d4, e3, che, secondo lui, e il modo migliore per combattere il Fianchetto di Re. Opinioni che si valgono!

The first sentence (thx, Google Translate): 
Quote:
According to Marshall and some other master this is the strongest continuation against the Fianchetto, as they say, the most effective immediate action of the pieces against the pawns.

...or s.th. similar (corrections welcome from native speakers). The rest reports Alekhine's skepticism (from the tournament book) since 3.Nc3 blocks the c-pawn. The first sentence seems to indicate that Marshall commented on 3.Nc3 rather than playing it in a game.
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #139 - 12/21/15 at 23:23:26
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Similarly, the description 150 Attack is now well established in British chess circles. To what extent is it known internationally, where the 150 reference would be obscure?
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #138 - 12/21/15 at 21:16:54
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BabySnake wrote on 06/04/12 at 15:48:10:
In "Starting Out: d-pawn Attacks" Palliser says:

"There has been some debate over how the Barry Attack acquired its name, but it does seem that it's from the phrase 'a load of old Barry' being slang for something which is essentially a bluff and actually fairly useless" 
                   



http://www.cockneyrhymingslang.co.uk/slang/barry_white
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #137 - 12/21/15 at 19:01:56
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kylemeister wrote on 06/04/12 at 21:34:40:
When Rogers did a Yearbook article on this stuff in 1992, he called it "Murshed's Anti-KID System."  The last few games in the article involved that Nd2-b3 line, of which the earliest example given was played by Murshed in 1984. 


Hmm, the plan of capturing d4xc5 followed by Nf3-d2-b3 was played in Yates-Capablanca, New York 1924, but with Capa playing 6 h3 instead of 6 Be2. 

After 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nf3 g6, the move 3 Nc3 was played three times in that tournament, although it came in for criticism by Alekhine in the tournament book. The first to play 3 Nc3 in the New York event was Ed. Lasker, in Round 1 against Maroczy, who allowed transposition to what we now call the Pirc.

In Die Hypermoderne Schachpartie, Tartakower describes 3 Nc3 as "Marshalls Zug", although Tartakower himself had played 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nf3 g6 3 Nc3 d5 4 Bf4 against V. Wahltuch at London 1922.

I mentioned in an earlier thread that the first systematic treatment of the line 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nf3 g6 3 Nc3 d5 4 Bf4 was possibly Graham Burgess's 6-page article in the British Chess Magazine of August 1991. He entitled it "The Hebden/Hodgson Attack" but quoted as earlier pioneers Capablanca, Niaz Murshed, Zsusza Polgar and Ian Rogers. 

However a rapid check in a good database will soon establish that it was tried by a good many masters prior to its rise to fame in the late 1980s.

By the way it is also apparent from "The Soviet Chess Conveyor" that Mikhail Shereshevsky was also playing and teaching this opening in the late 1970s.
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #136 - 12/20/15 at 21:15:44
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I volunteer to put up any ChessPubber traveling to Cleveland. As long as they pass a very detailed background check.  Grin
  
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