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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle (Read 108646 times)
Seeley
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #120 - 05/31/12 at 20:07:41
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/31/12 at 19:28:38:
If "Barry Attack" doesn't refer to a real person with the surname Barry, but is just a joke, meaning "rubbish" (or worse) - then I can't see any logic behind using "Barry-Angriff" in German. It would help to know more about the background - who coined the name and when.

My understanding has always been that the opening is named after the town of Barry, which is in Wales. However, I'm afraid I have no idea why the name might have originated in this way, nor can I remember where I first heard this, so it might be absolute nonsense!
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #119 - 05/31/12 at 20:03:11
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As I remember it, Summerscale mentions the meaning of 'Barry' in his Killer Opening Repertoire. 

But it could of course still be named after a person from the beginning and then people had some fun with it later.
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #118 - 05/31/12 at 19:28:38
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If "Barry Attack" doesn't refer to a real person with the surname Barry, but is just a joke, meaning "rubbish" (or worse) - then I can't see any logic behind using "Barry-Angriff" in German. It would help to know more about the background - who coined the name and when.
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #117 - 05/31/12 at 10:11:13
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/31/12 at 10:01:10:

According to Palliser: Angriffe mit dem Damenbauern, 2011, p. 214 [translated from Starting Out: d-Pawn Attacks, 2008], the opening was played in the 1920, but remained nameless, until Mark Hebden started to play it in the 1980s. Palliser continues that there have been discussions about the name's origin, "but it seems that it comes from the British saying "a load of old Barry" (my re-translation from German). 

But who invented the name, and when? Hebden? Gary Lane? Aaron Summerscale?


Sh*t is bad. NB not the meaning of bad, being something that's good (as per Michael Jackson lyric). It's unpleasantly bad.

Sh*t is synonymous with Sh*te.

Barry is cockney rhyming slang for sh*te, as in

"This opening is a load of sh*te"

becomes (NB not a description of Barry White, it's to rhyme it with sh*te)

"This opening is a load of Barry White"

becomes (as the slang doesn't use the rhyming bit)

This opening is a load of Barry

Simples.
  
Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #116 - 05/31/12 at 10:01:10
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 05/30/12 at 15:32:50:
I thought it was the same Barry from the Milner-Barry. That is, Stuart Milner-Barry. 
I'll have to check.

Most openings are named after famous players, but I guess this case is different. In his Mammoth Book of Chess, Graham Burgess wrote (p. 200): "The fact that this attack looks so naive is the reason for the opening's name!" 

According to Palliser: Angriffe mit dem Damenbauern, 2011, p. 214 [translated from Starting Out: d-Pawn Attacks, 2008], the opening was played in the 1920, but remained nameless, until Mark Hebden started to play it in the 1980s. Palliser continues that there have been discussions about the name's origin, "but it seems that it comes from the British saying "a load of old Barry" (my re-translation from German). 

But who invented the name, and when? Hebden? Gary Lane? Aaron Summerscale?
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #115 - 05/30/12 at 15:32:50
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I thought it was the same Barry from the Milner-Barry. That is, Stuart Milner-Barry. 

I'll have to check.
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #114 - 05/30/12 at 09:57:52
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Several sources call 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Bf4 Bg7 5.e3 0-0 6.Be2 followed by an eventual Ne5 and h4-h5 the "Barry Attack". One explanation was that it comes from "barry", British slang for "rubbish". Is this true, and if so, who invented the name? Gaige lists half a dozen chess players with the name "Barry", btw.
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #113 - 08/14/11 at 22:34:03
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Stigma wrote on 08/14/11 at 13:30:07:
According to Wikipedia, quoting the book on the 1994 Buenos Aires "Sicilian Love" Tournament:
Quote:
In 1813, the English master Jacob Henry Sarratt effectively standardised his English translation of the name of this opening as "the Sicilian Defence", referring to an old Italian manuscript that used the phrase, "il giocho siciliano" ("The Sicilian Game").

So somewhere in the writings of  Salvio, Polerio, Cozio or the other old Italian theoreticians there must have been mention of someone from Sicily playing 1.e4 c5.

Sarratt gave Carrera's book (1617) as the first source on 1.e4 c5. Carrera was from Sicily. But it was Sarratt who had coined "Muzio Gambit", so this should rather be checked. Presently I don't feel the desire to go through these 650 pages in old Italian language to locate the first mention of 1.e4 c5 in clumsy descriptive sentences. - A Greco manuscript (1623) presents games with 1.e4 c5 given as "Giuochi Siciliani". However, the same games were already in a 1594 manuscript which is ascribed to Polerio. - Van der Linde is a bit unclear here, but I believe he says that the 1594 manuscript gives the games, but not connected with the name "Siciliani/o". - So did Greco copy Polerio's material and added "Giuochi Siciliani" because of Carrera or because Polerio gave the name or because Greco knew of a general preference in Sicily for 1...c5? I have no idea.
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #112 - 08/14/11 at 18:44:14
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That makes some sense, thanks guys.
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #111 - 08/14/11 at 15:19:55
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I haven't read it myself, but I think Cozio gets credit for "Sicilian". This is second-hand information, but this source has been fairly reliable in the past. (I don't really want say who claimed this in case it's wrong.)
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #110 - 08/14/11 at 13:30:07
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Willempie wrote on 08/14/11 at 12:22:27:
the Dutch because it is cheap.

Grin

Willempie wrote on 08/14/11 at 12:22:27:
However I am at a loss about the Sicilian. I can't seem to find aany connection with the island.


According to Wikipedia, quoting the book on the 1994 Buenos Aires "Sicilian Love" Tournament:
Quote:
In 1813, the English master Jacob Henry Sarratt effectively standardised his English translation of the name of this opening as "the Sicilian Defence", referring to an old Italian manuscript that used the phrase, "il giocho siciliano" ("The Sicilian Game").

So somewhere in the writings of  Salvio, Polerio, Cozio or the other old Italian theoreticians there must have been mention of someone from Sicily playing 1.e4 c5.
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #109 - 08/14/11 at 12:22:27
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For most "country"-openings I can usually make out the name, like Italian from the Italian masters in the 17th century, Spanish from Ruy Lopez, Scottisch and French from city correspondence games and the Dutch because it is cheap. However I am at a loss about the Sicilian. I can't seem to find aany connection with the island.
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #108 - 08/09/11 at 22:16:16
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/09/11 at 15:35:22:
It seems that today our Dutch chessfriends simply call the beast "Siciliaanse draak".


Siciliaanse Draak (with two capitals) to be exactly. Usually just Draak suffices, though some recognize a variation called Engelse Draak (no awards for those who can guess the initial moves).
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #107 - 08/09/11 at 15:35:22
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The German wikipedia ( http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fjodor_Dus-Chotimirski ) on the origin of the name "Dragon Variation": 

Quote:
Großmeister Eduard Gufeld zitiert in seiner Monografie zur Drachenvariante aus Panows Buch "Ausgewählte Partien" Dus-Chotimirskis Erinnerungen:

    „Erstmals wurde dieser Name von mir 1901 in Kiew ausgesprochen. Ich beschäftigte mich mit Astronomie, beobachtete den Sternenhimmel und bemerkte die außere Ähnlichkeit der Bauernstellung d6-e7-f7-g6-h7 zum Sternbild des Drachens“.[4]. 

[4] Eduard Jefimowitsch Gufeld: Sizilianskaja Saschtschita. Fiskultura i sport, Moskwa, 1982, S. 8

Translation:

Quote:
In his monograph on the Dragon Variation Grandmaster Eduard Gufeld quotes Duz-Khotimirsky's memories, from Panov's book "Selected games":

    "For the first time this name was pronounced by me in 1901 in Kiev. I dealt with astronomy, watched the night sky and noticed the similarity between the pawn formation d6-e7-f7-g6-h7 and the constellation Draco."[4].


I see that the "official" ( Grin) Fide list of opening names published in the Dutch Tijdschrift 1935 gives the name "Draconische-verdediging". It seems that today our Dutch chessfriends simply call the beast "Siciliaanse draak".
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #106 - 07/27/11 at 23:11:02
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The German Wiki ( http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igelstellung ) offers the information lacking on the English site: 

Quote:
Die Bezeichnung „Hedgehog“, zu deutsch „Igel“, geht vermutlich auf William Hartston zurück.[1] 

[1] In der Literatur über den Igel erwähnt allein Kasparov (2007) als Namensgeber Hartston, der bereits 1971 einen Igel gegen Korchnoi spielte.

Translation:

Quote:
The term "Hedgehog", in German "Igel", presumably goes back to William Hartston [1].

[1] In the literature on the Hedgehog only Kasparov (2007) mentions Hartston, who already played a Hedgehog against Korchnoi in 1971, as the one who coined the name.

  
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