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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle (Read 107256 times)
Stefan Buecker
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #135 - 12/20/15 at 21:08:01
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/10/11 at 22:02:08:
Only few of these many games were published in the 19th century, even rarer an "Indian Defence" in our terminology. Cochrane collected these games played in Calcutta in a manuscript which he hoped to publish. The book never became reality. Today his manuscript is one of the chess treasures of the Cleveland Public Library (White Collection), available on microfilm. It seems that the games were added only a few years ago ("EXT 2006"; "EXT 2007") to the ChessBase database. - To be really sure that the games are authentic, I should travel to Cleveland, or get the microfilm.

How times are changing! This ancient document is now available online. Nice gift to chess history freaks from the staff of the Cleveland Public Library. 
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #134 - 06/06/12 at 11:47:51
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kylemeister wrote on 06/04/12 at 21:34:40:
When Rogers did a Yearbook article on this stuff in 1992, he called it "Murshed's Anti-KID System."  The last few games in the article involved that Nd2-b3 line, of which the earliest example given was played by Murshed in 1984. 

A valuable hint, thank you very much! I see that there are other articles in Yearbook 57 and 67, then it's "Barry Attack". But Ian Rogers' earlier proposal is important.
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #133 - 06/04/12 at 21:34:40
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When Rogers did a Yearbook article on this stuff in 1992, he called it "Murshed's Anti-KID System."  The last few games in the article involved that Nd2-b3 line, of which the earliest example given was played by Murshed in 1984. 
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #132 - 06/04/12 at 20:18:21
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BabySnake wrote on 06/04/12 at 14:33:41:
See also this old thread, which has a game from 1986 where Hebden faces the Barry Attack and wins!

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1132794533/15

True, but the game isn't really played in the spirit of the Barry Attack. According to Palliser and other authors, it is Be2 combined with h4-h5 which makes it an "attack". There are about 120 games older than 1982 in the database starting 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Bf4 Bg7 (not necessarily in this move order). But the idea h4-h5 only appears in a 1982 game. 

Another key motif seems to be 5.e3 0-0 6.Be2 c5 7.dxc5 Qa5 8.Nd2 Qxc5 9.Nb3 which gives White initiative on the q-side. But was it Murshed who put together all the main pieces, or is Ian Rogers or another Australian player the hero of the story? And doesn't Hebden deserve credit for his success with the line (~ 74% in 123 games)?
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #131 - 06/04/12 at 15:48:10
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In "Starting Out: d-pawn Attacks" Palliser says:

"There has been some debate over how the Barry Attack acquired its name, but it does seem that it's from the phrase 'a load of old Barry' being slang for something which is essentially a bluff and actually fairly useless"
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #130 - 06/04/12 at 15:40:03
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BabySnake wrote on 06/04/12 at 14:59:20:
TalJechin wrote on 05/31/12 at 20:03:11:
As I remember it, Summerscale mentions the meaning of 'Barry' in his Killer Opening Repertoire. 

But it could of course still be named after a person from the beginning and then people had some fun with it later.


According to http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/kenilworthian/2005/11/barry-attack-bibliograp... it's actually discussed by Gary Lane in "Ideas Behind Modern Chess Openings: Attacking with White (Batsford 2002)"


The top comment of that page, mentioned another source, just prior to the early 80s

Quote:
Anonymous said...
Check out the Pseudo London System in T.D. Harding's 1979 monograph called Colle, London, and Blackmar-Diemer Systems. You will find three pages devoted to it, ie. p.65-68. It appears that it was actually called the Pseudo-London System at that time.
  
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BabySnake
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #129 - 06/04/12 at 14:59:20
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TalJechin wrote on 05/31/12 at 20:03:11:
As I remember it, Summerscale mentions the meaning of 'Barry' in his Killer Opening Repertoire. 

But it could of course still be named after a person from the beginning and then people had some fun with it later.


According to http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/kenilworthian/2005/11/barry-attack-bibliograp... it's actually discussed by Gary Lane in "Ideas Behind Modern Chess Openings: Attacking with White (Batsford 2002)"
  
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BabySnake
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #128 - 06/04/12 at 14:33:41
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See also this old thread, which has a game from 1986 where Hebden faces the Barry Attack and wins!

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1132794533/15
  
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TN
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #127 - 06/02/12 at 09:09:11
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 06/02/12 at 07:02:27:
TN wrote on 06/01/12 at 02:05:24:
The opening should be named the 'Murshed Attack' as Niaz Murshed was the first strong player to play the opening on a regular basis. Hebden started playing it after a loss to Murshed in the early 1980s.

I may be wrong, but the game which "converted" Mark Hebden seems to be the following:



Of course, you are right. I should have checked before posting. The player I was thinking of was Ian Rogers, who played the Barry on a regular basis after a loss to Murshed in the 80s.
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #126 - 06/02/12 at 08:33:47
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JEH wrote on 05/31/12 at 21:30:31:
TalJechin wrote on 05/31/12 at 20:03:11:
As I remember it, Summerscale mentions the meaning of 'Barry' in his Killer Opening Repertoire.


I have the first edition, but can't see anything there. 

Summerscale writes in his notes to Game 1

"The year 1987 was a particularly important one for the Barry Attack, for it was the year that Mark Hebden was introducted, somewhat painfully, to its delights." 

This was during the Seville Open, and Julian Hodgson was also playing there. I'm assuming the opening didn't have a name back then, but I can imagine Mark saying to Julian, look at this sh*te opening I've just lost to, and the name Barry Attack was born. 

With giving other openings joke names like the 150 Attack and the Toilet Variation, it wouldn't surprise me if some English GMs are having a quiet chuckle about the name Barry Attack catching on  Smiley


OK, I remembered wrong. It was probably this article by Andrew Martin I was thinking of, I guess.

Bits and pieces, Feb 1999:
Quote:
The Barry (bullshit for outside UK) Attack

http://web.archive.org/web/19991003142606/http://www.internetchess.com/columns/a...

Btw, found another site referring to Barry, Wales but not much more...
http://chessexpress.blogspot.se/2010/06/barry-attack.html
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #125 - 06/02/12 at 08:03:06
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That is what Summerscale is citing.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #124 - 06/02/12 at 07:02:27
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TN wrote on 06/01/12 at 02:05:24:
The opening should be named the 'Murshed Attack' as Niaz Murshed was the first strong player to play the opening on a regular basis. Hebden started playing it after a loss to Murshed in the early 1980s.

I may be wrong, but the game which "converted" Mark Hebden seems to be the following:

  
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TN
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #123 - 06/01/12 at 02:05:24
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The opening should be named the 'Murshed Attack' as Niaz Murshed was the first strong player to play the opening on a regular basis. Hebden started playing it after a loss to Murshed in the early 1980s.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #122 - 05/31/12 at 21:34:01
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I see that the topic was already discussed at chesspub: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1132794533/all . One quote: 

Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/04/06 at 03:29:57:
I've done some research on Milner Barry now, and have discovered that he never (or almost certainly never) played 1.d4 in a serious game in his entire career stretching from 1928-1980.  So the Barry attack couldn't have been named after him.   

I have a few other leads to check on to see if there's a Barry who actually played that line.  I sincerely doubt that Mr. Goeller is right about the origin of the name.


In August 2007 ( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/chess/malcolmpein/3667044/An-ill-wind-for-Rad... ) Malcolm Pein wrote the following in his Telegraph column: 

Quote:
The Barry Attack was so named after one particularly precocious English junior described it as ‘A load of old Barry’. However in the hands of Mark Hebden it is anything but.
 

If the system was first named after the town in Wales or after a real player Barry, witnesses step forward, please.
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #121 - 05/31/12 at 21:30:31
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TalJechin wrote on 05/31/12 at 20:03:11:
As I remember it, Summerscale mentions the meaning of 'Barry' in his Killer Opening Repertoire.


I have the first edition, but can't see anything there. 

Summerscale writes in his notes to Game 1

"The year 1987 was a particularly important one for the Barry Attack, for it was the year that Mark Hebden was introducted, somewhat painfully, to its delights." 

This was during the Seville Open, and Julian Hodgson was also playing there. I'm assuming the opening didn't have a name back then, but I can imagine Mark saying to Julian, look at this sh*te opening I've just lost to, and the name Barry Attack was born. 

With giving other openings joke names like the 150 Attack and the Toilet Variation, it wouldn't surprise me if some English GMs are having a quiet chuckle about the name Barry Attack catching on  Smiley
  
Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

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