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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle (Read 108627 times)
TalJechin
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #105 - 07/27/11 at 22:12:47
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I don't know, but it might have something to do with Ulf Andersson. The hedgehog was (perhaps still is?) the symbol for the Swedish military defence, so it would make sense in a way.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #104 - 07/27/11 at 21:52:37
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MNb wrote on 07/24/11 at 21:10:01:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/24/11 at 08:58:47:
Can someone tell me, perhaps, when the term "Hedgehog" for these structures came up? In the 1970s, I guess?

Possibly; in 1981 it was already around, I can witness. But I thought the term was of German origin, ie Igelstellung? If my memory serves me well the term has to do with trench warfare. But I could be wrong and both meanings stem from the same source - that funny animal.

Thanks. "Igelstellung" may also have a place in warfare, or as a general term, but German chess players connect it with the animal, yes. There was a book on the system with a hedgehog on the title, for example. 

I thought the term would perhaps go back to the early 1970s, because of Fischer. Else it could in fact have a German origin - I guess I saw it at first in Schach-Magazin 64. That magazine started 1979, with editor Otto Borik, who was well versed with the latest openings (and authored a small, but very useful book Halboffene Spiele). I'll check.

Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/24/11 at 12:19:38:
I don't have a source, but I'm pretty sure the term "hedgehog" does come from the 1970s. I vaguely remember something that Ludek Pachman said, but it could just as easily have been one of the English kiddos of the day with their strong affinity for woodland creatures. Perhaps someone read Kenneth Grahame once too often before a chess game. (Yeah, I know. Grahame was Scottish, not English.)

Many funny names came from Britain. This still seems more probable to me than the German origin. Thanks - will check.
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #103 - 07/24/11 at 21:10:01
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/24/11 at 08:58:47:
Can someone tell me, perhaps, when the term "Hedgehog" for these structures came up? In the 1970s, I guess?

Possibly; in 1981 it was already around, I can witness. But I thought the term was of German origin, ie Igelstellung? If my memory serves me well the term has to do with trench warfare. But I could be wrong and both meanings stem from the same source - that funny animal.
  

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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #102 - 07/24/11 at 12:19:38
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I don't have a source, but I'm pretty sure the term "hedgehog" does come from the 1970s. I vaguely remember something that Ludek Pachman said, but it could just as easily have been one of the English kiddos of the day with their strong affinity for woodland creatures. Perhaps someone read Kenneth Grahame once too often before a chess game. (Yeah, I know. Grahame was Scottish, not English.)
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #101 - 07/24/11 at 11:22:45
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It has nothing to do with my question above regarding the origin of the term "Hedgehog" in the Sicilian Defence, but I cannot resist. From the English tournament book Hasting 1895 (Cheshire, 1896), p. 139ff.:

Quote:
Steinitz plays a sort of hedgehog defence, requiring most careful handling on the part of the opponent, but Lasker presently wins a Pawn, and eventually the game by a very fine combination.

A famous game; I add only the first comments by Gunsberg from the tournament book:

  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #100 - 07/24/11 at 08:58:47
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Seen in another thread: 

BPaulsen wrote on 07/24/11 at 02:19:05:
I'm not concerned with giving proper credit to whomever played something first, because otherwise we'd be calling Hedgehogs "Paulsen Defenses" (that was actually what Nimzowitsch called it in Chess Praxis), and obviously nobody would know what I was talking about if I did that.

Can someone tell me, perhaps, when the term "Hedgehog" for these structures came up? In the 1970s, I guess? There are several books on the topic, maybe one of these authors has explicitly mentioned a book or article where the term, in this context, was used for the first time? 

Regarding the Paulsen Sicilian, by the way, the proper name would be "Wilfried Paulsen Sicilian". Not Louis Paulsen, his brother had developed it.
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #99 - 07/23/11 at 15:34:06
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"Indian Opening" not popular in Germany and Austria

Löwenthal's term "Indian Opening" (1864) for 1.e4 e5 2.d3 wasn't greeted with enthusiasm by Max Lange in Schachzeitung 1864, p. 266. In his work Kritik der Eröffnungen Lange had already mentioned 2.d3 in passing, arguing that as a preparation for f2-f4, the move 2.Nc3 were more useful than 2.d3. So he called the system not after the British colony, but "Damenbauer ein Schritt". 


Max Lange continued:

Quote:
Die Eröffnung 2.d3 ist [deshalb] keineswegs so neu, wie z. B. Löwenthal annimmt, und die Bezeichnung mit "Indischer Partie", weil sie vielleicht hier und da in Indien gespielt sein mag, oder weil sie von Green, der sich in Indien aufgehalten hat, mit Vorliebe angewendet wird, hat um so weniger eine Bedeutung, als sie wohl mindestens ebenso häufig in Europa bei schwächeren Spielern und namentlich bei reinen Naturalisten vorkommen möchte.

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Quote:
The opening 2.d3 is [therefore] not as new as e.g. Lowenthal assumed. Calling it "Indian Game", because perhaps it may have been played now and then in India, or because Green, having been in India, uses it with preference, has even less significance, since it occurs probably at least as frequently with weaker players in Europe and especially with pure naturalists.

The term "Indische Eröffnung" was used by Berthold Suhle in the German tournament book of London 1862, and similar set-ups involving e4 and d3 were sometimes called "Indische Partie": in Österreichische Lesehalle 1889, p. 154, and in Deutsche Schachzeitung 1895, p. 253. - The reason why this name never caught on in Germany is obvious: 2.d3 is played only rarely, there was no real demand for it. In the 1920s we will meet a completely different situation: 1.d4 Nf6 was played very frequently, by the strongest masters, and a good name was urgently needed. The rescue came from Savielly Tartakower, assisted by Max Stainlein from Munich.
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #98 - 07/22/11 at 09:44:33
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From Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Defence

Quote:
Although Indian defences were championed in the 1920s by players in the hypermodern school, they were not fully accepted until Russian players showed in the late 1940s that these systems are sound for Black.

Most Indian systems were fully accepted by 1930, I believe, no matter how you define "accepted". Played by many of the leading players - too many to be listed here. Even old Tarrasch played Indian defences: Old Indian, Bogo-Indian, Nimzo-Indian, Queen's Indian, Budapest - you find them all in his games. The King's Indian took a little longer, Max Euwe was one of the main forces to prove its respectability. And somehow I doubt that the Budapest was ever regarded as fully respectable by the best of the best.

Correction: In reply #81, I wrote: Seghieri: Guida elementare per apprendere il giuoco degli scacchi, 1889 [it also covered "Partita di Fischer"]: Cochrane - Moheschunder, the true KI from reply #56, until 7...e5: "Black has the better game". The author says about "La Difesa Italiana" [...]

For "Italiana" read "Indiana".
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #97 - 07/21/11 at 22:30:58
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In reply #65, I speculated whether the 661 Cochrane games (plus 3 with zero moves) from Calcutta might be the whole "Loose Indian..." collection. Could two more volumes of games - earlier and later games - slumber somewhere in a collection? However, the same post (reply #65) was already quoting the following: 

Quote:
[...] in 1858, Mr. Cochrane said to him that he did not think that his book would appear during his life time, as he was then getting old and had too many cares of other sorts [...]
 



The distribution of the games (above) confirms Cochrane's reduced activity from 1858 onwards. In the years 1859 and 1860 Valerine Green was in Calcutta and played against Moheschunder and others, but it isn't reflected in this collection. These observations make it less probable that a volume with later games had been collected by Cochrane.

Regarding games before 1848, the situation is less clear. In 1825 Cochrane went to India, was back in 1841-43, then he returned to Calcutta. A publisher seems to have contacted him in 1841, the book "Loose Indian..." was announced in 1852. But did he find any good opponents? How many good games could Cochrane have played before 1848, when he met Moheschunder? The sources mention an eight-game-match between Cochrane and Moheschunder played in 1848, but as far as I know only one game has survived.
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #96 - 07/21/11 at 15:22:32
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/21/11 at 06:38:20:
What was most interesting in the King's Indians between Cochrane and Moheschunder: how fast they learned.

Okay, I take that back. There was a fair share of serious positional errors from the first till the last KI games of the series. But they had their moments:

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Cochrane - Moheschunder, 1853, their 15th surviving KI game; 0-1, 46.


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Cochrane - Moheschunder, 1855, their 57th surviving KI game; 15.Kh2 followed by an attack on the g-file. 1-0, 30.


* * * * * * * *
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Cochrane - Moheschunder, 1855, their 62nd surviving KI game; 0-1, 25. - These three positions are recognizable King's Indian structures - admittedly with some minor flaws.
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #95 - 07/21/11 at 06:38:20
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/20/11 at 20:05:28:
I knew about the sandglasses. Is there any direct evidence they were used in Cochrane's games?

As far as I know: no. Cochrane commented some games in the manuscript (as we know), perhaps he added general remarks about the circumstances of the games and/or the matches. If I become more interested in the topic, maybe for an article, I should get the microfilm. But right now I am satisfied with what I know. These games are "only" played at a fast rate, but in the 1850ies the magazines published also European games of low quality: odds games; matches between players to whom Staunton gave odds; the occasional patzer game sent in from an enthusiastic reader, simultaneous or blindfold games, and so on. I'd guess that Moheschunder had FM strength, and Cochrane IM strength. Had Loose Indian Chess Leaves - or only the 70 KI games - appeared in 1870 in book form, the new opening "Indian Defence" would have instantly become the new fashion and soon a fully accepted opening.

Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/20/11 at 20:05:28:
One thing that slightly surprises in these few games is the relatively high value the players place on the Bishops in these games. 

A modern player looking at the McDonnell-Labourdonnais games will quickly realise they both valued knights more than bishops and played the opening accordingly.

I'm not so sure I see such a preference in these (few) games.

The picture may be distorted, because I chose mainly "King's Indians", and in the KI bishops often have a long life, while pins Bg5 or Bg4 are relatively rare. I played through other games and couldn't see such a trend in their many Open Games. Obviously, I focused on the KI games. 

What was most interesting in the King's Indians between Cochrane and Moheschunder: how fast they learned. One should assume that strong players are able to learn from their mistakes, but still ... it was nice to compare the idiocy of some early KI games with more reasonable games later, but then they throw in an anti-positional Nxe4, or Bc1-g5. I may be prejudiced, and should perhaps re-check this more critically, but to me some of their latest KI games look quite modern. Maybe I'll give some examples... Anyway, this was a difficult development which took time, and the strong opponent Cochrane played an important role in the process. 

Maybe it was hard for contemporaries to recognize that Moheschunder's ideas were something special and new, not just adoptions from the Native Indian Chess. But with the games before us on the screen, today we should drop the notion that "the Brahmins", as a group, had these opening ideas. I bet you could have picked the 100 best-playing "Brahmins" of that era, and Cochrane could have beaten them 95-5 in a simultaneous. It wasn't "the Brahmins", the KI was Moheschunder's invention. (Later the KI was - temporarily - called "Euwe's Defence". Fully deserved, if you ask me. But history goes on, and the names of openings are the product of many factors, including luck.)
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #94 - 07/20/11 at 20:05:28
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I knew about the sandglasses. Is there any direct evidence they were used in Cochrane's games?


One thing that slightly surprises in these few games is the relatively high value the players place on the Bishops in these games. 

A modern player looking at the McDonnell-Labourdonnais games will quickly realise they both valued knights more than bishops and played the opening accordingly.

I'm not so sure I see such a preference in these (few) games.
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #93 - 07/20/11 at 17:39:38
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Paddy wrote on 07/20/11 at 17:32:57:
Specialized chess clocks were first used at London 1883.

But even before that moves were timed, using e.g. sandglasses, pendulum clocks or stopwatches.

Thanks!
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #92 - 07/20/11 at 17:32:57
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Specialized chess clocks were first used at London 1883.

But even before that moves were timed, using e.g. sandglasses, pendulum clocks or stopwatches.
  
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Re: Nomenclature of Openings: Indian Jungle
Reply #91 - 07/20/11 at 17:21:17
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Hmm... in The British Chess Magazine 1897, p. 150, C. E. Ranken writes: "This game was played at the rate of a move a minute." Maybe the players used a sandglass which they simply turned for every move. - The 12th move is an improvement upon 12.Ne6, as played in the (more famous) game in reply #56. Ranken apparently hasn't seen the whole manuscript, else he wouldn't have made the comment regarding "with more deliberation". The sacrifice Nxe4 was tested in 17 games by Cochrane and Moheschunder.



  
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