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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Spanish repertoire (Read 374948 times)
fling
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #30 - 07/25/11 at 10:27:11
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MNb wrote on 07/25/11 at 09:41:52:
fling wrote on 07/25/11 at 08:45:04:
If we are going with the most critical, I'd suggest 5.exf5 anyway, since it is quite critical and Sokolov thinks that "5. Bc4 is not that dangerous".

It will never hurt to have two recommendations, but I still have two questions.
Does Sokolov give a reason why 5.Bc4 is not that dangerous?
Doesn't 5.exf5 Nf6 tend to transpose to that Parma game?

Answer of the second question: no, it tends to transpose to that Smailbegovic game I have addressed above. So 4...Nd4 5.exf5 makes a lot of sense indeed.

I suppose 3...f5 4.Nc3 Nd4 5.exf5 c6 6.Nxd4 exd4 7.Qh5 Ke7 8.0-0 Nf6 is met with 9.Re1+ Kd6 10.Ne4+ Nxe4 11.Rxe4 cxb5 12.d3.

fling wrote on 07/25/11 at 08:59:08:
maybe we should agree on an outline first?

If we debate an outline first there is a serious chance we never will get started. I repeat: let Markovich decide. I continued on 3...f5 because he did not object.


I guess you are right, better to get started!

See my above post. 8. d4! seems to give White better chances!

I'll check Sokolov's line after Bc4 when I have time.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #29 - 07/25/11 at 09:41:52
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fling wrote on 07/25/11 at 08:45:04:
If we are going with the most critical, I'd suggest 5.exf5 anyway, since it is quite critical and Sokolov thinks that "5. Bc4 is not that dangerous".

It will never hurt to have two recommendations, but I still have two questions.
Does Sokolov give a reason why 5.Bc4 is not that dangerous?
Doesn't 5.exf5 Nf6 tend to transpose to that Parma game?

Answer of the second question: no, it tends to transpose to that Smailbegovic game I have addressed above. So 4...Nd4 5.exf5 makes a lot of sense indeed.

I suppose 3...f5 4.Nc3 Nd4 5.exf5 c6 6.Nxd4 exd4 7.Qh5 Ke7 8.0-0 Nf6 is met with 9.Re1+ Kd6 10.Ne4+ Nxe4 11.Rxe4 cxb5 12.d3.

fling wrote on 07/25/11 at 08:59:08:
maybe we should agree on an outline first?

If we debate an outline first there is a serious chance we never will get started. I repeat: let Markovich decide. I continued on 3...f5 because he did not object.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #28 - 07/25/11 at 08:59:08
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Schaakhamster wrote on 07/25/11 at 08:38:17:
I very much like the idea of this thread. Are we going to work one line at a time or more chaotic? 

An idea would be to select one line as the main line (my suggestion would be the Chigorin, more for historical reasons I admit). And threat the rest as branches working through them to get to the mainline. 



I agree on the ideas, and I think we should keep it to one line at a time for clarity reasons. Based on a post (Mnb's I think) I just continued on a suggested line, but maybe we should agree on an outline first?
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #27 - 07/25/11 at 08:52:27
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Sorry, I can't get my post correct. I wanted to add a PGN-file, but it doesn't work after the 7th move. What did I do wrong?

EDIT: Fixed, I wrote zero-zero (0-0), not O-O.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #26 - 07/25/11 at 08:47:38
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fling wrote on 07/25/11 at 08:38:21:
MNb wrote on 07/25/11 at 03:30:00:
We already know that 3...f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 d5 6.Nxe5 d5 7.Nxc6 Qg5 8.Qe2 Nf6 9.Nxa7+ Bd7 10.Bxd7+ Nxd7 11.f4 Qc5 12.Nb5 Qxc2 13.d4! is very pleasant for White.

But how should 7...Qd5 be dealt with? The main line is 8.c4 Qd6 9.Nxa7+ Bd7 10.Bxd7+ Qxd7 11.Qh5+ g6 12.Qe5+ Kf7 13.Nb5 c6 14.Qd4 but how big is White's advantage after Nf6 15.Qxd7+ Nxd7 16.Nc3 Nc5 17.0-0 Bg7 ?
Is there something better? I have looked at a few deviations and some are interesting (there is a game Timman-Piket) but none seem to give a clear advantage.


Sorry, but Black can't play ...d5, what is it supposed to be?


1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 f5 4. Nc3 fxe4 5. Nxe4 d5 6. Nxe5 dxe4 7. Nxc6 . You could say the first main theoretical parting of the road in the mainline.   
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #25 - 07/25/11 at 08:45:04
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MNb wrote on 07/25/11 at 01:53:16:
fling wrote on 07/24/11 at 18:46:22:
Therefore, let's start with 4 ...Nd4, or? I have never analyzed that move, but both 5. Ba4 and 5. exf5 looks interesting.

It's OK with me, especially as this shows the dangers White has to beware of. Before you know White defends against a KG with colours reversed. A classical example is

Marjanovic,S - Parma,B [C63]
Yugoslavia, 1979

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 Nd4 5.Ba4 Nf6 6.Nxe5 Bc5 7.0-0 0-0 8.exf5 d5 9.Ne2 Qd6 10.Nxd4 Bxd4 11.Nf3 Ng4 12.g3 Bxf2+ 13.Rxf2 Nxf2 14.Kxf2 Bxf5 15.d4 Be4 16.Bf4 Rxf4 17.gxf4 Qxf4 18.Qe2 Rf8 19.Rf1 Qxh2+ 20.Ke1 Qg3+ 21.Kd2 Rxf3 22.Rxf3 Qxf3 23.Qb5 h5 24.Qxb7 h4 25.Qxc7 Qf2+ 0-1

5.Bc4 is to be preferred.  It scores excellently. 5...d6 basically is a lame version of the King's Gambit Declined with colours reversed. 5...Nf6 6.0-0 and 6.d3 is no problem either. So 5.Bc4 c6 remains. GM Sax played 6.Bxg8 in Las Palmas 1978 while 6.0-0 should be good too. For our purpose we can stop here, I think.

4...Nf6 must be studied in relation with 4...Nd4. Black's idea is to reach that Parma game (or something similar) by transposition: 5.exf5 Bc5 6.o-o o-o 7.Nxe5 Nd4 8.Ba4. White should deviate somewhere, but I find it hard to decide where exactly. Options are 8.Nf3, 8.Bd3, 7.Bxc6 and 6.Qe2. Anyone?

Edit: Well, me myself. I glanced through my notes, checked the game Smailbegovic-Maric, Sombor 1957. 8.Nf3 Nxb5 9.Nxb5 d5 (I always have thought that the pair of Bishops should offer some compensation) 10.Nbd4 Ng4 11.h3 Ne5 12.Nxe5 Bxd4 13.Nf3 Bb6 and according to Rybka White can afford 14.g4 (iso White's 14.d4) Qf6 15.d4 as Bxf5 16.gxf5 Qxf5 17.Ne5 idea 18.Qg4 holds no danger at all.


If we are going with the most critical, I'd suggest 5.exf5 anyway, since it is quite critical and Sokolov thinks that "5. Bc4 is not that dangerous". The piece sac after  5 ...c6  6.Nxd4 exd4 7.Qh5 Ke7 8.0-0 is pretty grim for Black. I noticed a game in this line in MegaDatabase with pretty messy play, but Sokolov's variation 8...dxc3 9 d4!! seems like good for White and lots of fun!

« Last Edit: 07/25/11 at 15:22:04 by fling »  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #24 - 07/25/11 at 08:38:21
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MNb wrote on 07/25/11 at 03:30:00:
We already know that 3...f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 d5 6.Nxe5 d5 7.Nxc6 Qg5 8.Qe2 Nf6 9.Nxa7+ Bd7 10.Bxd7+ Nxd7 11.f4 Qc5 12.Nb5 Qxc2 13.d4! is very pleasant for White.

But how should 7...Qd5 be dealt with? The main line is 8.c4 Qd6 9.Nxa7+ Bd7 10.Bxd7+ Qxd7 11.Qh5+ g6 12.Qe5+ Kf7 13.Nb5 c6 14.Qd4 but how big is White's advantage after Nf6 15.Qxd7+ Nxd7 16.Nc3 Nc5 17.0-0 Bg7 ?
Is there something better? I have looked at a few deviations and some are interesting (there is a game Timman-Piket) but none seem to give a clear advantage.


Sorry, but Black can't play ...d5, what is it supposed to be?
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #23 - 07/25/11 at 08:38:17
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I very much like the idea of this thread. Are we going to work one line at a time or more chaotic? 

An idea would be to select one line as the main line (my suggestion would be the Chigorin, more for historical reasons I admit). And threat the rest as branches working through them to get to the mainline. 

  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #22 - 07/25/11 at 08:34:30
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MNb wrote on 07/25/11 at 03:30:00:
We already know that 3...f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 d5 6.Nxe5 d5 7.Nxc6 Qg5 8.Qe2 Nf6 9.Nxa7+ Bd7 10.Bxd7+ Nxd7 11.f4 Qc5 12.Nb5 Qxc2 13.d4! is very pleasant for White.

But how should 7...Qd5 be dealt with? The main line is 8.c4 Qd6 9.Nxa7+ Bd7 10.Bxd7+ Qxd7 11.Qh5+ g6 12.Qe5+ Kf7 13.Nb5 c6 14.Qd4 but how big is White's advantage after Nf6 15.Qxd7+ Nxd7 16.Nc3 Nc5 17.0-0 Bg7 ?
Is there something better? I have looked at a few deviations and some are interesting (there is a game Timman-Piket) but none seem to give a clear advantage.


I believe Sokolov (Ruy Lopez revisited) thought that Qg5 was payable but Qd5 not. I'll look it up when I get home.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #21 - 07/25/11 at 03:30:00
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We already know that 3...f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 d5 6.Nxe5 dxe4 7.Nxc6 Qg5 8.Qe2 Nf6 9.Nxa7+ Bd7 10.Bxd7+ Nxd7 11.f4 Qc5 12.Nb5 Qxc2 13.d4! is very pleasant for White.

But how should 7...Qd5 be dealt with? The main line is 8.c4 Qd6 9.Nxa7+ Bd7 10.Bxd7+ Qxd7 11.Qh5+ g6 12.Qe5+ Kf7 13.Nb5 c6 14.Qd4 but how big is White's advantage after Nf6 15.Qxd7+ Nxd7 16.Nc3 Nc5 17.0-0 Bg7 ?
Is there something better? I have looked at a few deviations and some are interesting (there is a game Timman-Piket) but none seem to give a clear advantage.

Edit: I corrected the typo.

fling wrote on 07/25/11 at 08:38:21:
Sorry, but Black can't play ...d5, what is it supposed to be?
« Last Edit: 07/25/11 at 09:37:16 by MNb »  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #20 - 07/25/11 at 01:53:16
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fling wrote on 07/24/11 at 18:46:22:
Therefore, let's start with 4 ...Nd4, or? I have never analyzed that move, but both 5. Ba4 and 5. exf5 looks interesting.

It's OK with me, especially as this shows the dangers White has to beware of. Before you know White defends against a KG with colours reversed. A classical example is

Marjanovic,S - Parma,B [C63]
Yugoslavia, 1979

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 Nd4 5.Ba4 Nf6 6.Nxe5 Bc5 7.0-0 0-0 8.exf5 d5 9.Ne2 Qd6 10.Nxd4 Bxd4 11.Nf3 Ng4 12.g3 Bxf2+ 13.Rxf2 Nxf2 14.Kxf2 Bxf5 15.d4 Be4 16.Bf4 Rxf4 17.gxf4 Qxf4 18.Qe2 Rf8 19.Rf1 Qxh2+ 20.Ke1 Qg3+ 21.Kd2 Rxf3 22.Rxf3 Qxf3 23.Qb5 h5 24.Qxb7 h4 25.Qxc7 Qf2+ 0-1



5.Bc4 is to be preferred.  It scores excellently. 5...d6 basically is a lame version of the King's Gambit Declined with colours reversed. 5...Nf6 6.0-0 and 6.d3 is no problem either. So 5.Bc4 c6 remains. GM Sax played 6.Bxg8 in Las Palmas 1978 while 6.0-0 should be good too. For our purpose we can stop here, I think.

4...Nf6 must be studied in relation with 4...Nd4. Black's idea is to reach that Parma game (or something similar) by transposition: 5.exf5 Bc5 6.o-o o-o 7.Nxe5 Nd4 8.Ba4. White should deviate somewhere, but I find it hard to decide where exactly. Options are 8.Nf3, 8.Bd3, 7.Bxc6 and 6.Qe2. Anyone?

Edit: Well, me myself. I glanced through my notes, checked the game Smailbegovic-Maric, Sombor 1957. 8.Nf3 Nxb5 9.Nxb5 d5 (I always have thought that the pair of Bishops should offer some compensation) 10.Nbd4 Ng4 11.h3 Ne5 12.Nxe5 Bxd4 13.Nf3 Bb6 and according to Rybka White can afford 14.g4 (iso White's 14.d4) Qf6 15.d4 as Bxf5 16.gxf5 Qxf5 17.Ne5 idea 18.Qg4 holds no danger at all.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #19 - 07/24/11 at 20:32:44
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/24/11 at 17:42:29:
To study mainly the popular moves would, in my opinion, contradict Markovich's idea to "prove +=" for White. But I'll watch what happens. There ARE moves which are fine, only unusual and therefore unpopular. I believe that 3...Bc5 = is objectively best. I am not fond of Na5, g5, Bb4, f6, but 3...a5 deserves a look. - As arbiter we have engines, if we regard lines above, say, +0.35 (in R4) as "solved", fine with me.


I don't say we should try to prove +=.  I say that our starting assumption should be that with best play, that's what White gets. If we find ourselves with less at some point, this will indicate we should either look deeper or change approaches.

So I believe that with this, which is Principle #4, and Principle #1, we already have a complete set of criteria for selecting White's moves. As for Black's, we are compelled to consider any that do not obviously result in += or better for White.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #18 - 07/24/11 at 20:16:20
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Slightly worse than 3...Rb8.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #17 - 07/24/11 at 19:53:25
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What do you think abaout 3...Bb5

Discussed in Bernhard Lach: Spanisch - Die Alapin-Variante 1.e4 e5 2.Sf3 Sc6 3.Lb5 Lb4! from 1995

  
What kind of proof is that?
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #16 - 07/24/11 at 19:13:02
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I just realized there is a thread on the Jaenisch already started, which I haven't read. I guess starting more analysis here could mean double posts kinda.

Anyway, I just checked Sokolov's book and he states that he thinks 4 ...Nd4 is a mistake and gives it a ?
  
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