ChessPub Forum - Spanish repertoire

Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #180 - 08/06/11 at 23:43:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	Bandwagon effect, hereabouts? "Assuming all of the above mentioned," everything mentioned above is true, so why don't we just charge ahead in the assumed-true, mentioned-above direction? Also, let's not start with the assumption, which is about all it is at this point, that we cant find +=, or something close, in one of these lines. It's too early to take 4.c3 off the table. This move is too well reputed to dismiss so lightly. For instance, I think the position after 14.Bf1 in Stefan's line of #157 may be worth investigating. Somebody has a lot more understanding of chess than I do to be able to say "=" with any certainty at that point (I only have this in one game by the way, not 36). But also, isn't 14.a4 a better move than 14.Bf1?

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Vass God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1105 Joined: 06/22/11	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #179 - 08/06/11 at 22:55:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	Assuming all of the above mentioned I maintain that we'll have to follow the main line with 4. 0-0 I post a game here and propose to you to look at it, especially at 13. Qf3!? (or ?!), although I think 13. Re1!? with the same Qf3-plan is better for white. Download game in pgn format Edit: I think that we can't find pure += in this 3... Bc5 variation, so we'll have to find a variation which is hard for black to handle. And this can be a good one. After 16... Bxf5 I would love to play this position with white. The problem is that 13... d5! (instead of 13... Re8) was missed by Tkachiev and thus white wouldn't have achieved it. How do you think? Is there any way for white here for += ?


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Stefan Buecker God Member Offline Posts: 1386 Location: Germany Joined: 02/11/09 Gender:	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #178 - 08/06/11 at 17:12:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 08/06/11 at 16:44:46: After 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.e5 Nd5!?, Solokov could have saved us a lot of trouble by doing his damn job and writing something about it. But our treatment so far of this seems facile to me and I suggest we look deeper here as well. I still think that 6...Nd5 is interesting, but since nobody here has questioned my analysis in reply #157, it seems to me that 6...Ne4 is even stronger. If White has nothing here, the decision about 4.c3 or 4.0-0 should be easy.


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #177 - 08/06/11 at 16:44:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	I posted this once before but somehow it was lost. I think that if we go with 4.0-0, the strongest after 4...Nd4 is 5.Nxd4 Bxd4 6.c3. I wrote before that I doubted that White had much here, but maybe we should look at it more deeply. After 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.e5 Nd5!?, Solokov could have saved us a lot of trouble by doing his damn job and writing something about it. But our treatment so far of this seems facile to me and I suggest we look deeper here as well. Anyway it must be 4.0-0 or 4.c3, we should spend some time deciding which.

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Stefan Buecker God Member Offline Posts: 1386 Location: Germany Joined: 02/11/09 Gender:	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #176 - 08/05/11 at 16:46:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	I had written that after (1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Bc5 4. 0-0 Nd4 5. b4), the reply 5...Nxf3+ seemed best. But 5...Bxb4 6.Nxd4 exd4 7.Bb2 is a solid alternative. Played in 25 games (some top players), score 50%. For example: (a) 7...Bc5 8.c3 Qf6 9.Qh5 Bb6 10.cxd4 hopes for the amusing trap 10...Bxd4? 11.e5! Qb6 12.e6! +-. But 10...c6 11.Bd3 d6 12.e5 Qf4 13.d5 (13.g3 Bg4 14.exd6 0-0-0 15.Qe5 Qf6 =) 13...Bg4 14.Qh4 g5 may hold. (b) The main line is perhaps 7...Ne7 8.Bxd4 0-0 9.a3 Ba5 10.Nc3 d6, and White hasn't much. True, I like White's e-pawn more than Black's b-pawn, but that's an entirely different thing than claiming a +=.


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Stefan Buecker God Member Offline Posts: 1386 Location: Germany Joined: 02/11/09 Gender:	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #175 - 08/05/11 at 12:23:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	Vass wrote on 08/05/11 at 06:30:42: Well, obviously after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Bc5 4. O-O Nd4 5. b4 Nxf3+ 6. Qxf3 Bxb4 7. Qg3 Nf6 8. d4 O-O 9. Bh6 Nh5 white has only 10. Qxe5 Qf6 11. Qxh5 Qxh6 12. Qxh6 gxh6 13. c3 Ba5 14. Rc1 c6 15. Bd3 d6 16. Nd2 where black has to struggle for a draw, though I think that the two bishops will do it after all. There is an alternative: 11.Qxf6 Nxf6 12.Bd2 Bxd2 13.Nxd2 which gives him a nice plus (+=). If it were only for myself, I'd really like 8.Qxe5+!, not fearing simplifications. To give a b-pawn for a center pawn fits well into my Nimzowitschian/Larsenian world view. Worth mentioning is also 7.Bb2 (instead of 7.Qg3) 7...Qg5!? 8.Qb3 Bd6, for example: (a) 9.d4 Nh6 10.Rd1 exd4 11.Nd2 c6 12.Be2 0-0 with an unusual situation. White has compensation. (b) 9.f4 exf4 10.e5 (or maybe 10.d4) 10...Bc5+ 11.Kh1 (or 11.d4 Bb6 12.c4 unclear) 11...b6 12.d4 Bb7 13.Qh3 with compensation, resembling a weird kind of King's Gambit. Few games have been played with 4...Nd4 5.b4!?, although it seems to offer just as good play as 5.Nxd4.


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Vass God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1105 Joined: 06/22/11	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #174 - 08/05/11 at 06:30:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 08/05/11 at 01:18:21: Convincing about 11...Qf6, thank you. After 9.Bh6, what's the plan after 9...Nh5? Well, obviously after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Bc5 4. O-O Nd4 5. b4 Nxf3+ 6. Qxf3 Bxb4 7. Qg3 Nf6 8. d4 O-O 9. Bh6 Nh5 white has only 10. Qxe5 Qf6 11. Qxh5 Qxh6 12. Qxh6 gxh6 13. c3 Ba5 14. Rc1 c6 15. Bd3 d6 16. Nd2 where black has to struggle for a draw, though I think that the two bishops will do it after all.


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #173 - 08/05/11 at 01:18:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	Convincing about 11...Qf6, thank you. After 9.Bh6, what's the plan after 9...Nh5?

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Stefan Buecker

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #172 - 08/04/11 at 20:42:45

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Markovich wrote on 08/04/11 at 19:50:42:

We have more useful things to discuss, but I would much rather have White after 18...Qd7 19.f5. For all I know you may be right that 9.b4 is even better, but I don't see how Black redeems himself here. - I guess I would agree that White will need good technique to win the piece-up ending.

Agreed - it is suitable only for people with a divine endgame technique. For our earth-bound repertoire, 9.Qd4...12.Qd4 would be good enough (+0.30), and 9.b4 is strong, too.

Markovich wrote on 08/04/11 at 19:50:42:

After 9.b4 Ne6 10.f4 Nc6 11.f5, I'm not so sure that 11...Qf6 is bad for Black.

12.fxe6 Qxa1 13.exf7+ Kf8 14.c3 Qxb1 15.Bd3 Qxa2 16.Re1 Qxf7 17.Rf1 Ne5 18.Rxf7+ Nxf7 19.Qf3 (even stronger than 19.Bc4 c6 20.Bxf7) 19...c6 20.Be3 d6 21.Bc4 d5 22.Bd3 +-.

After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Bc5 4.0-0 Nd4, an inspiring idea would be Lutikov's 5.b4 Nxf3+ (best) 6.Qxf3 Bxb4. Here 7.Bb2 scored only 50% in 6 games (e.g. 7...Qg5), but I'd like 7.Qg3, which has been played only once: 7...c6 8.Qxe5+ Henson - Lawson, Canada 2005, later 0-1. Stronger would have been 8.Bc4 Qf6 9.Bb2 d6 10.f4!. Probably 7...Nf6! is critical:

White can choose between 8.Qxe5+ and 8.d4 0-0 9.Bh6 Ne8. Am I right to prefer White?

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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #171 - 08/04/11 at 19:50:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	We have more useful things to discuss, but I would much rather have White after 18...Qd7 19.f5. For all I know you may be right that 9.b4 is even better, but I don't see how Black redeems himself here. I guess I would agree that White will need good technique to win the piece-up ending. After 9.b4 Ne6 10.f4 Nc6 11.f5, I'm not so sure that 11...Qf6 is bad for Black.

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Stefan Buecker God Member Offline Posts: 1386 Location: Germany Joined: 02/11/09 Gender:	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #170 - 08/04/11 at 18:00:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 08/04/11 at 16:49:02: Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/03/11 at 23:41:00: MNb wrote on 08/03/11 at 23:14:12: But yes, if it's gonna be 3...Nf6 4.o-o Bc5 5.Nxe5 you are right. I see, in http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1149281149 Markovich gave an interesting novelty in the line 5.Nxe5 Nxe5 6.d4 a6 7.Be2 Nxe4 8.dxc5 Nxc5 9.Qd4 d6 10.f4 Ng6 11.Qxg7 Bf5 12.g4. (The last move, though very ambitious, wasn't mentioned by Sokolov. My PC now suggests 12.Qd4 as good for White, btw.) But I also like Sokolov's analysis with 9.b4!?. It is not easy for Black to equalize here. 6...c6 7.dxe5 Nxe4 8.Qg4 was studied by Sokolov (I have my doubts), but the quieter 8.Bd3 seems good enough for a plus. - Thus it seems that Black should play 5...Nxe4. 12. g4 just wins, I think. This was your analysis from quite a while ago (moves in bold): Markovich wrote on 06/02/06 at 20:45:49: I will now be generous and share what I believe to be the refutation of a major line of the Berlin Classical: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. 0-0 Bc5 5. Nxe5 (this may be White's best, I opine) 5...Nxe5 6. d4 a6! 7. Be2! Nxe4?. I say "?" because I believe I have the refutation: 8. dxc5 Nxc5 9. Qd4 d6 10. f4 Ng6 11. Qxg7 Bf5 and now 12. g4! Some time ago in Hard Chess I wrote that 12...Qe7! 13. gxf5 Qxe2 14. fxg6 Qg4+ 15. Kh1 0-0-0 appeared to give Black reasonable chances for his piece. For example, 16. Nc3? Ne6! and White is in a lot of trouble (this was actually played in a high-level game, but I forget by whom and where). White instead should play 16. Qd4! hxg6 17. Nc3 and now 17...Rh3 (does anyone see anything better? -- I don't) reaches a position I considered in Hard Chess, where I thought White would continue with 18. Be3, and I showed that by hurrying his knight to f5, Black could get good play. But White has instead 18. Qg1! proposing simplification. [...] Now 18...Qd7!? may be best (roughly equal, says Silicon). So it isn't obvious that 12.g4 is better than, say, 12.Qd4.


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #169 - 08/04/11 at 16:49:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/03/11 at 23:41:00: MNb wrote on 08/03/11 at 23:14:12: But yes, if it's gonna be 3...Nf6 4.o-o Bc5 5.Nxe5 you are right. I see, in http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1149281149 Markovich gave an interesting novelty in the line 5.Nxe5 Nxe5 6.d4 a6 7.Be2 Nxe4 8.dxc5 Nxc5 9.Qd4 d6 10.f4 Ng6 11.Qxg7 Bf5 12.g4. (The last move, though very ambitious, wasn't mentioned by Sokolov. My PC now suggests 12.Qd4 as good for White, btw.) But I also like Sokolov's analysis with 9.b4!?. It is not easy for Black to equalize here. 6...c6 7.dxe5 Nxe4 8.Qg4 was studied by Sokolov (I have my doubts), but the quieter 8.Bd3 seems good enough for a plus. - Thus it seems that Black should play 5...Nxe4. 12. g4 just wins, I think.

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Vass God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1105 Joined: 06/22/11	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #168 - 08/04/11 at 12:28:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	Imho, after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. e5 Nd5!? 7. cxd4 Bb4+ (8. Bd2 Bxd2 9. Qxd2 a6!? when both 10. Bd3 d6 and 10. Bc4 Nb6 11. Bb3 d6 seems about equal) 8. Nbd2 a6 9. Ba4 Nb6 10. Bc2 d5 11. a3 Be7 12. h3 O-O 13. O-O and now 13.... f6!? 14. Re1 fxe5 15. dxe5 Qe8!? 16. b4 Bf5!? 17. Bb2 Qg6 18. Rc1 Rae8 black achieves what he wants. I find that 7. 0-0 is not critical for black, too - after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. e5 Nd5 7. O-O Be7 8. cxd4 d6 9. Nc3 Be6 10. Qb3 Nxc3 11. Qxc3 Bd5!? 12. Bc4 Bxc4 13. Qxc4 O-O 14. Be3 a5! with ...d5, ...Ra6, ...Rb6 idea. (All improvements for white are welcome, of course!) Thus, we can concentrate on 5. 0-0 I suppose. Edit: Mhmm.., I somehow start to believe Stefan that 3... Bc5 is =


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Glenn Snow God Member Offline Posts: 1720 Location: Franklin Joined: 09/27/03 Gender:	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #167 - 08/04/11 at 03:45:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 08/03/11 at 17:01:27: Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/03/11 at 14:12:20: We'll also have to do with 3...Nf6 4.0-0 Bc5, when White's choices are more limited. - Edit: Khalifman's (2003) suggested repertoire was 4.c3 Nf6 5.0-0, transposing to 3...Nf6 4.0-0 Bc5. Here I strongly recommend 5.Nxe5. Quote: I am not sure whether White has much, for example, after 3...Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.e5 Nd5!? (not in Sokolov) 7.0-0 Be7 8.cxd4 d6 9.Nc3 Be6, about =. I can't understand why 7.cxd4, instead of 7.0-0, isn't seen more in practice. I my db it occurs in three very low-level games, worthless as indications of its merit. But after 7...Bb4+ 8.Nbd2 0-0 9.0-0 White looks pretty good to me. For what it's worth after 7...Bb4+ in the last variation, Houdini on my computer thinks 8.Bd2 is even stronger despite giving up the Bishop pair.


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Stefan Buecker God Member Offline Posts: 1386 Location: Germany Joined: 02/11/09 Gender:	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #166 - 08/03/11 at 23:41:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	MNb wrote on 08/03/11 at 23:14:12: But yes, if it's gonna be 3...Nf6 4.o-o Bc5 5.Nxe5 you are right. I see, in http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1149281149 Markovich gave an interesting novelty in the line 5.Nxe5 Nxe5 6.d4 a6 7.Be2 Nxe4 8.dxc5 Nxc5 9.Qd4 d6 10.f4 Ng6 11.Qxg7 Bf5 12.g4. (The last move, though very ambitious, wasn't mentioned by Sokolov. My PC now suggests 12.Qd4 as good for White, btw.) But I also like Sokolov's analysis with 9.b4!?. It is not easy for Black to equalize here. 6...c6 7.dxe5 Nxe4 8.Qg4 was studied by Sokolov (I have my doubts), but the quieter 8.Bd3 seems good enough for a plus. - Thus it seems that Black should play 5...Nxe4.


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