ChessPub Forum - Spanish repertoire

kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4989 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #255 - 09/01/11 at 19:23:30	Post Tools	Print Post
	I had the same thought re the Ponziani, and the impression that 8. Nxd4 (possible even in the Ponz version) is a serious try.


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LeeRoth God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 1520 Joined: 10/22/05	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #254 - 09/01/11 at 18:55:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes, thanks. Stefan pointed that out too. 6..Nd5 is turning out to be a real frustration. Someone may have pointed this out already, but after 7.0-0 Be7, White is up a move on a line of the Ponz. One would think that would give White a chance at some kind of an edge. But I suppose the Bb5 isn't optimally placed.


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #253 - 09/01/11 at 02:35:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	LeeRoth wrote on 08/30/11 at 19:17:35: After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.e5 Nd5 I'd prefer to play 7.0-0, taking advantage of the position of the Knight to avoid the check on b4. Vass gave 7..Be7 8.cxd4 d6 9.Nc3 Be6 (9..Nxc3 10.bxc3 looks profitable for White) 10.Qb3 Nxc3 11.Qc3 Bd5!? (11..0-0 12.Bxc6 bxc6 13.Qxc6 Rb8 gives Black some compensation but it doesn't look like its enough; 11..Bd7 leaves Black passive) 12.Bc4 Bc4 13.Qxc4 0-0 14.Be3 a5 which he evaluated as equal, but I wonder if this is the case. If we go a little further 15.Rac1 d5 16.Qc2 Qd7 17.a3 looks natural, when I think White should have a slight pull. But see #238 above.

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Knightcut YaBB Newbies Offline Unclear chess rocks! Posts: 27 Location: Denmark Joined: 04/04/11 Gender:	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #252 - 08/31/11 at 14:18:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	Vass wrote on 08/31/11 at 11:51:13: So we agree that 6...; Nd5!? after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. e5 gives black better chances for equality. Then we have to propose a good way for achieving += against it. LeeRoth in his last post gave an idea with 15. Rac1. And Stefan gave a good idea with 9.Nbxd2!? (after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.e5 Nd5 7.cxd4 Bb4+ 8.Bd2 Bxd2+). I think we'll have to agree that white has a small edge here (about +=/= or so) and therefore we have to stop here. As for 6... Ne4, I think Stefan in his last post gave some good options for white for +=. Yes, Stefan gave some good options for white after 6...Ne4 and besides White still has the obvious 7.Qe2 += (at least), which scores heavily in whites favour in the statistics. Therefore 3...f5!


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Vass God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1105 Joined: 06/22/11	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #251 - 08/31/11 at 11:51:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	So we agree that 6...; Nd5!? after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. e5 gives black better chances for equality. Then we have to propose a good way for achieving += against it. LeeRoth in his last post gave an idea with 15. Rac1. And Stefan gave a good idea with 9.Nbxd2!? (after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.e5 Nd5 7.cxd4 Bb4+ 8.Bd2 Bxd2+). I think we'll have to agree that white has a small edge here (about +=/= or so) and therefore we have to stop here. As for 6... Ne4, I think Stefan in his last post gave some good options for white for +=.


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Stefan Buecker

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #250 - 08/30/11 at 20:17:11

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@LeeRoth: My impression is that 7.0-0 is too slow. We had discussed this in reply #242; after 12...dxe5 13.dxe5 Bxc4 14.Qxc4 Qc8 and an eventual Qe6 Black stands firm.

SWJediknight wrote on 08/30/11 at 19:39:36:

I previously considered 6...Ne4 to be better, as here 7.cxd4 Bb4+ probably equalises fully, but upon closer inspection 7.Qe2 probably gives White some advantage, e.g. 7...d5 8.exd6 Bf5 9.Bxc6+ bxc6 10.dxc7 Qxc7 11.cxd4 Bb4+ 12.Bd2, and considering that Black now has to take time out with 12...Qe7 or 12...Be7, Black has some, but not full, compensation (+=).

In replies #189 (me) and #192 (Vass) we had discussed 8...0-0 9.dxc7 Qe7 which gave White only a very very small plus.

After 6...Ne4 now I believe 7.cxd4 is White's best chance. I'll give some sample lines, none of them really forced. But to reach full equality isn't an easy task for Black: 7...Bb4+

(a) 8. Kf1 (the weakest of the three replies) 8...a6 9.Bd3 d5 10.exd6 Nf6 (10...Nxd6? 11.d5 idea 12.Qa4+) 11.dxc7 Qxc7 12.a3 Be7 13.Nc3 Be6 14.Be3 Rd8 15.h3 0-0 16.g3 b5 17.Kg2 Qb7 18.Kh2 Rfe8 19.Re1 Qd7 20.Bf1 Nd5 21.Bg2 +=; Black has some compensation for the pawn.

(b) 8.Bd2 Nxd2 9.Nbxd2 a6 10.Ba4 0-0 11.0-0 d6 12.Bxc6 Bxd2 13.Qxd2 bxc6 14.Qc3 +=.

(c) 8.Nbd2 0-0 9.0-0 d5 10.a3 Be7 11.Bd3 Bf5 12.Qc2 Nxd2 13.Bxd2 Bxd3 14.Qxd3 a5 15.Ne1 += with ideas like f2-f4. With his passive Be7 and weakened q-side, Black hasn't equalized.

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SWJediknight God Member Offline Alert... opponent out of book! Posts: 916 Joined: 03/14/08	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #249 - 08/30/11 at 19:39:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	I agree that 7.cxd4 Bb4+ 8.Bd2 Bxd2+ 9.Nbxd2 probably gives White a small edge, e.g. 9...0-0 10.0-0 d6 11.Rc1. I can't find anything to add to LeeRoth's 7.0-0 suggestion, White does seem to get a "niggle" there too. I previously considered 6...Ne4 to be better, as here 7.cxd4 Bb4+ probably equalises fully, but upon closer inspection 7.Qe2 probably gives White some advantage, e.g. 7...d5 8.exd6 Bf5 9.Bxc6+ bxc6 10.dxc7 Qxc7 11.cxd4 Bb4+ 12.Bd2, and considering that Black now has to take time out with 12...Qe7 or 12...Be7, Black has some, but not full, compensation (+=).


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LeeRoth God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 1520 Joined: 10/22/05	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #248 - 08/30/11 at 19:17:35	Post Tools	Print Post
	After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.e5 Nd5 I'd prefer to play 7.0-0, taking advantage of the position of the Knight to avoid the check on b4. Vass gave 7..Be7 8.cxd4 d6 9.Nc3 Be6 (9..Nxc3 10.bxc3 looks profitable for White) 10.Qb3 Nxc3 11.Qc3 Bd5!? (11..0-0 12.Bxc6 bxc6 13.Qxc6 Rb8 gives Black some compensation but it doesn't look like its enough; 11..Bd7 leaves Black passive) 12.Bc4 Bc4 13.Qxc4 0-0 14.Be3 a5 which he evaluated as equal, but I wonder if this is the case. If we go a little further 15.Rac1 d5 16.Qc2 Qd7 17.a3 looks natural, when I think White should have a slight pull.


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fling God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1591 Joined: 01/21/11 Gender:	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #247 - 08/30/11 at 11:02:27	Post Tools	Print Post
	Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/30/11 at 09:00:21: Edit: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.e5 Nd5 7.cxd4 Bb4+ 8.Bd2 Bxd2+ (so far Vass in reply #168) 9.Nbxd2 seems relatively best which may or may not give White a slight plus against 6...Nd5. I would agree on this. Don't know how much of an edge it is, though.


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Stefan Buecker God Member Offline Posts: 1386 Location: Germany Joined: 02/11/09 Gender:	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #246 - 08/30/11 at 09:00:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	My last comment wasn't meant to kill a possible dialogue on 4.c3 Nf6 5.0-0. If somebody believes that an advantage can be proved, I'd be willing to listen. Do we all agree so far that 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.e5 Nd5 gives Black a solid position? It seems difficult to break through here. Against the more common 6...Ne4 White has a choice of replies, a += may be possible. But personally I'd prefer 6...Nd5. Then there is the interesting 6.cxd4!? (instead of 6.e5) Bb4+ when 7.Nbd2 gives White full compensation (similar to the "Italian" Pomtow Attack, discussed elsewhere in this forum), and alternatives 7.Kf1 or 7.Nc3 or 7.Bd2 are hardly worse. Those moves are all playable. But "compensation" is not the same as +=. Edit: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.e5 Nd5 7.cxd4 Bb4+ 8.Bd2 Bxd2+ (so far Vass in reply #168) 9.Nbxd2 seems relatively best which may or may not give White a slight plus against 6...Nd5.


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Stefan Buecker God Member Offline Posts: 1386 Location: Germany Joined: 02/11/09 Gender:	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #245 - 08/27/11 at 18:15:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	Zwischenzugzwang wrote on 08/26/11 at 21:38:36: Quote: Checking minor lines makes sense, when we have nothing promising in the traditional lines. I've checked the last 100 or so postings of this thread and didn't find any research / analysis of the "main line" 3...Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.0-0 0-0 6.d4 Bb6 7.Bg5 (or did I simply miss it??), so I can't follow your statement . This line ("The Complex 5.c3") is covered by Sokolov on twelve pages at the end of The Ruy Lopez Revisited. His main line ends in a roughly balanced position (p. 262). Conclusion: "This is a complex line with many possibilities for both sides. I personally feel that White may have the best chances for an advantage in the line with 8.Qd3 or 7...h6 8.Bh4 d6 9.Qd3. However, over the years plenty of different possibilities have been tried and there is still a lot to explore." Qd3 is discussed in detail, e.g. on p. 257 Sokolov presents Topalov - Vallejo Pons, Dos Hermanas rapid 2008 ("Black gradually equalized and drew"). - I don't think that it was a mistake to look at 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4. It has no less main line status as c3/0-0. I had studied the "complex" line and don't believe that White can prove an advantage.


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Zwischenzugzwang Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing & chess pubs! Posts: 380 Location: Zotzenbach Joined: 06/14/11 Gender:	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #244 - 08/26/11 at 21:38:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: Checking minor lines makes sense, when we have nothing promising in the traditional lines. I've checked the last 100 or so postings of this thread and didn't find any research / analysis of the "main line" 3...Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.0-0 0-0 6.d4 Bb6 7.Bg5 (or did I simply miss it??), so I can't follow your statement . Anyway, as you, Stefan, and others have contributed much more to this thread than me, I don't see a reason to start any dispute over this. Best regards, Zwischenzugzwang

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Stefan Buecker God Member Offline Posts: 1386 Location: Germany Joined: 02/11/09 Gender:	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #243 - 08/26/11 at 20:25:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	Zwischenzugzwang wrote on 08/26/11 at 13:43:10: Greet's "discovery" 4.Nxe5 was published in 2006, five years ago, and it has not really caught on. The only +2500 player who used it since then is Radulski, as mentioned in an earlier posting, so I wonder if checking it really makes sense. [...] Checking minor lines makes sense, when we have nothing promising in the traditional lines. The move 4.Nxe5 is older (1884), but Greet did suggest new ideas. That popular moves are better than rare moves may be true for 80% of the cases, but how can you find the occasional exception without actually analyzing? Radulski - Groetz, Le Touquet 2007: (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Bc5) 4.Nxe5 Qe7 5.Nf3 Qxe4+ 6.Be2 Nd4 7.Nxd4 Qxd4 8.0-0 d5 (improving upon Greet's analysis) 9.d3 (9.c3 Qf6 10.d4 Bd6 =) 9...Qf6 (9...Ne7 10.Be3!? Qxb2 11.Bxc5 Qxa1 12.d4 sacrifices the exchange, with good compensation) 10.c4 dxc4 11.Nc3 cxd3 12.Bxd3 Ne7 13.Ne4 Qb6 (Radulski - Groetz, Le Touquet 2007), and here 14.Nxc5 (instead of 14.a4) 14...Qxc5 15.Be3 Qd5 16.Rc1 c6 17.Bc5 +/- would have given White more than compensation for the pawn. However, 9...Bd6! 10.c4 Nf6 11.Nc3 c6 looks critical, e.g. 12.Bf3 0-0 13.cxd5 Nxd5 (13...cxd5 14.Nb5) 14.Nxd5 cxd5 15.Qb3 Be6 16.g3 and White has only a tiny plus.


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #242 - 08/26/11 at 17:21:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/26/11 at 07:03:41: Markovich wrote on 08/26/11 at 01:50:19: Another idea against 3...Bc5 is 4.Nc3, transposing into the Four Knights. But leaving that aside for the time being, I wonder if we're underrating White's chances in 3...Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.e5 Nd5 7.0-0 Be7 8.cxd4 d6 9.Nc3 Be6 10.Qb3 Nxc3 11.Qxc3 Bd5 12.Bc4. Doesn't 12...dxe5 13.dxe5 Bxc4 14.Qxc4 produce some advantage for White? I don't think so, after 14...Qc8 = Black plans an occasional Qe6 (or will just develop). Maybe 13.Nxe5 is slightly better, but the resulting position should not be difficult to defend. Yeah, my first thought was that the isolated e-pawn might mean something in case of that, but it looks defensible.

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Zwischenzugzwang Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing & chess pubs! Posts: 380 Location: Zotzenbach Joined: 06/14/11 Gender:	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #241 - 08/26/11 at 13:43:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	Greet's "discovery" 4.Nxe5 was published in 2006, five years ago, and it has not really caught on. The only +2500 player who used it since then is Radulski, as mentioned in an earlier posting, so I wonder if checking it really makes sense. Of course, one could argue that one avoids "heavy theory", but is the absolute amount of theory with alternatives in the Classical really so much more? I've nothing against early deviations from theory, and I'd have welcomed it if this move had gotten more popularity, but as that hasn't happened, I still propagate 4.c3. Best regards, Zwischenzugzwang

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