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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Spanish repertoire (Read 375026 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #300 - 11/03/11 at 18:05:17
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Yes, looks like a lot of Black pressure ... 

I wonder also if Black can start with [u]12 ...Bf5[/u], discouraging castling (13 0-0 Rae8) and meeting 13 Rb1 with 13 ...d5 again.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #299 - 11/03/11 at 17:08:43
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In your second line, I looked at 17.Ba3 Bd6 18.Re1 (18.d4 cxd4 15.Bxd6 cxd6 looks fine for Black) 18...g5!? with the idea of radically simplifying the kingside pawn structure. E.g. 19.h3 h5 and so forth or 19.Nf1 g4 20.f4 Bxf4 21.Bxc5 g3.  I'm not sure, but White's win looks difficult to this amateur.

I suppose White could try 18.h4 instead of 18.Re1, but then 18...Rf6 and so forth.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #298 - 11/03/11 at 14:44:45
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[quote]At any rate, since huggy's foregoing analysis was met by Stefan's comment that Black has insufficient comp, perhaps Stefan will be good enough to explain why he now considers the position after ...bxc6 to be equal. [/quote]

Interesting discussion. I've only looked at this briefly, but it seems to me Stefan's b3/f3 plan is just good for White which might imply 12 ...Rb8 is wrong. Any mileage in just 12 ...d5 and 13 ...c5 taking space? On 13 0-0, 13 ...c5 14 Re1 (14 Nb3 c4) Bf5 15 Nf3 and now 15 ...Rab8 might be OK? Or if White sticks with 'the plan' with 13 Rb1, maybe something like 13 ...c5 14 b3 Bf5 15 f3 Rae8 16 Kd1 Be5 might suffice?
  
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Markovich
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #297 - 11/02/11 at 05:30:27
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You may be right, but I wouldn't call it completely obvious, since Black seems to have have pretty good comp after the queen exchange.

9.0-0 was such a disaster because it implied that White's queen should go a-hunting on the queenside. You're very often in trouble if you're behind in development and merrily winning queenside pawns.
  
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MNb
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #296 - 11/02/11 at 02:57:38
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Obviously Black shouldn't allow the exchange of Queens.
a) 9...Qg6 (Shamkovich) 10.O-O O-O 11.Qxe7 Rxf3 12.d3 ended in a draw, but is good for White. Chura-Semenova, Pardubice 1992.
b) 9...Qf7 10.Qxc7 (who says A must say B too; two pawns is quite a lot) O-O 11.d3 Bb4+ (Hunter) 12.Kf1. Giving up castling rights is inconvenient, but White will get Her Majesty into play again via e5 or g3 and will otherwise just finish development.
10.O-O d6 is a bit too similar to 9.O-O to my taste.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #295 - 11/01/11 at 17:00:57
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Markovich wrote on 11/01/11 at 01:35:02:
So it seems to me that we should return to 9.Qxe5 d6 10.Qxf6 Bxf6 and be sure the claim "=" really is justifed. The main thing I have to say about it is that 11.d3 appears to be the best move. But one point worth observing is that Black doesn't necessarily equalize if he trades dark-square bishops to win the b-pawn, since White's c- and b-pawns will block three of Black's.


At any rate, since huggy's foregoing analysis was met by Stefan's comment that Black has insufficient comp, perhaps Stefan will be good enough to explain why he now considers the position after ...bxc6 to be equal.
  
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tp2205
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #294 - 11/01/11 at 11:19:37
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Markovich wrote on 11/01/11 at 01:08:44:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 10/31/11 at 17:56:50:
Markovich wrote on 10/31/11 at 17:34:18:
9.0-0 d6 10.Qe4 0-0 11.d4 Qf5 12.Qxc6 Bd7 13.Qc4+ Be6 14.Qxc7 e4 does indeed look risky for White, but maybe warrants a deeper look before we abandon 9.0-0. I find 11...Qf7 12.Qxc6 Rb8 13.Qxc7 Bb7 14.Bg5 less persuasive.

On the other hand 12...Be6 13.dxe5 Bd5 14.Qc3 Rae8! is a nice move that asks White what he's doing while Black merely builds up a strong attack. So I'm fairly well persuaded that 9.0-0 isn't any good.

On 14.Bg5, the reply 14...Qg6 -/+ seems strong.


Fair enough after 15.Bxe7 Bxf3 16.g3 Rfc8.


Even better 16...Qe6/f5 17.Bf8 Rf8 and 18...Qh3 wins
  
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Markovich
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #293 - 11/01/11 at 01:35:02
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So it seems to me that we should return to 9.Qxe5 d6 10.Qxf6 Bxf6 and be sure the claim "=" really is justifed. The main thing I have to say about it is that 11.d3 appears to be the best move. But one point worth observing is that Black doesn't necessarily equalize if he trades dark-square bishops to win the b-pawn, since White's c- and b-pawns will block three of Black's.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #292 - 11/01/11 at 01:08:44
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 10/31/11 at 17:56:50:
Markovich wrote on 10/31/11 at 17:34:18:
9.0-0 d6 10.Qe4 0-0 11.d4 Qf5 12.Qxc6 Bd7 13.Qc4+ Be6 14.Qxc7 e4 does indeed look risky for White, but maybe warrants a deeper look before we abandon 9.0-0. I find 11...Qf7 12.Qxc6 Rb8 13.Qxc7 Bb7 14.Bg5 less persuasive.

On the other hand 12...Be6 13.dxe5 Bd5 14.Qc3 Rae8! is a nice move that asks White what he's doing while Black merely builds up a strong attack. So I'm fairly well persuaded that 9.0-0 isn't any good.

On 14.Bg5, the reply 14...Qg6 -/+ seems strong.


Fair enough after 15.Bxe7 Bxf3 16.g3 Rfc8.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #291 - 10/31/11 at 17:56:50
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Markovich wrote on 10/31/11 at 17:34:18:
9.0-0 d6 10.Qe4 0-0 11.d4 Qf5 12.Qxc6 Bd7 13.Qc4+ Be6 14.Qxc7 e4 does indeed look risky for White, but maybe warrants a deeper look before we abandon 9.0-0. I find 11...Qf7 12.Qxc6 Rb8 13.Qxc7 Bb7 14.Bg5 less persuasive.

On the other hand 12...Be6 13.dxe5 Bd5 14.Qc3 Rae8! is a nice move that asks White what he's doing while Black merely builds up a strong attack. So I'm fairly well persuaded that 9.0-0 isn't any good.

On 14.Bg5, the reply 14...Qg6 -/+ seems strong.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #290 - 10/31/11 at 17:34:18
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9.0-0 d6 10.Qe4 0-0 11.d4 Qf5 12.Qxc6 Bd7 13.Qc4+ Be6 14.Qxc7 e4 does indeed look risky for White, but maybe warrants a deeper look before we abandon 9.0-0. I find 11...Qf7 12.Qxc6 Rb8 13.Qxc7 Bb7 14.Bg5 less persuasive.

On the other hand 12...Be6 13.dxe5 Bd5 14.Qc3 Rae8! is a nice move that asks White what he's doing while Black merely builds up a strong attack. So I'm fairly well persuaded that 9.0-0 isn't any good.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #289 - 10/31/11 at 16:39:22
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tp2205 wrote on 10/31/11 at 14:04:42:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 10/31/11 at 08:28:48:

Markovich wrote on 10/31/11 at 03:01:17:
MNb wrote on 10/30/11 at 22:44:02:
Looks like Black has nice play after 8.Bxc6 bxc6 9.O-O d6 10.Qe4 (10.d4 Qg6 transposes to a line above and 10.d3 Bg4 is good for Black) O-O 11.d4 (I don't see what White has after 11.d3) Qf7 (anticipates 12.Bg5) 12.dxe5 d5 because of the halfopen f-file, the d5-c5 centre and the pair of Bishops.


Probably more critical is 12.Qxc6, intending 12...Be6 13.dxe5 Bd5 14.Qc3 Qg6 15.Ne1

I had studied this in the move-order 8.0-0 0-0 9.Qe4 d6 10.Bxc6 bxc6 11.d4 (11.Qxc6 Bg4!). My main line was 11...Qf5 which equalizes on the spot after 12.Qxf5, or White has to play 12.Qxc6 Bd7 with full compensation for Black. But 11...Qf7 (MNb) seems to be just as good. After 14.Qc3 Rad8!? =, where do you develop your Bc1?

I am not sure but 15.Bg5 Bf3 16 Be7 Qe7 17.gf3 Qe5 (de5 18.Tad1 is probably +=) 18.Qe5 de5 19.Rad1 may also be += e.g. Rd1 20.Rd1 Rf3 21. Kg2 Rf4 22.Rd8 Rf8 23.Rd5 perhaps even better. But I rather leave this to some endgame experts.

You may be right. Maybe 14...Rae8 is more precise, in detail:

11...Qf7 (MNb) 12.Qxc6 (Markovich) and then: 

(a) 12...Rb8 13.Qxc7 (Markovich) 13...Bb7 =. 
(b) 12...Be6 13.dxe5 Bd5 14.Qc3 Rae8! 15.Be3 Bxf3 16.gxf3 Kh8 17.Qc6 Qh5 e.g. 18.Kh1 dxe5 19.Rg1 e4 20.fxe4 Qf3+ 21.Rg2 Rd8 =. 

And, not to forget, there is still 11...Qf5! =.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #288 - 10/31/11 at 14:04:42
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 10/31/11 at 08:28:48:

Markovich wrote on 10/31/11 at 03:01:17:
MNb wrote on 10/30/11 at 22:44:02:
Looks like Black has nice play after 8.Bxc6 bxc6 9.O-O d6 10.Qe4 (10.d4 Qg6 transposes to a line above and 10.d3 Bg4 is good for Black) O-O 11.d4 (I don't see what White has after 11.d3) Qf7 (anticipates 12.Bg5) 12.dxe5 d5 because of the halfopen f-file, the d5-c5 centre and the pair of Bishops.


Probably more critical is 12.Qxc6, intending 12...Be6 13.dxe5 Bd5 14.Qc3 Qg6 15.Ne1

I had studied this in the move-order 8.0-0 0-0 9.Qe4 d6 10.Bxc6 bxc6 11.d4 (11.Qxc6 Bg4!). My main line was 11...Qf5 which equalizes on the spot after 12.Qxf5, or White has to play 12.Qxc6 Bd7 with full compensation for Black. But 11...Qf7 (MNb) seems to be just as good. After 14.Qc3 Rad8!? =, where do you develop your Bc1?


I am not sure but 15.Bg5 Bf3 16 Be7 Qe7 17.gf3 Qe5 (de5 18.Tad1 is probably +=) 18.Qe5 de5 19.Rad1 may also be += e.g. Rd1 20.Rd1 Rf3 21. Kg2 Rf4 22.Rd8 Rf8 23.Rd5 perhaps even better. But I rather leave this to some endgame experts.

  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #287 - 10/31/11 at 10:14:09
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tp2205 wrote on 10/31/11 at 09:35:50:
After 22.c4 (more or less forced) how do you continue, the best I could find was Bc5 23. Kh1 and then Qg4 threatening Bf5 and Rh2. Now 24.h3 looks too slow after Re8 and 25... Re2. But 24. Rf3 Bf5 25. Qf1 looks alright since I am not sure if Be4 works I haven't not found out how to deal with 26. Be3 which may be ok for white. Best seems to be Bf3 27 Bc5 Qh3 28.Qg1 Re8 29.Ne7 (29.gf3 Re2 -+)  Kf7 30. Bb4/a3/d6. The position still looks complicated 

Now 23...Qg4 looks a bit strange but 23...Bb7 does not impress me either Simply 24.Bd2 looks good enough.   
And after 23...Ba6 24. b4 takes the sting out of Rd5

Are there better plans for black?

30.Ba3 Bb7 31.Nd5 Qg3 looks fine, 30.Bd6 Be4!? (or Bb7 again) 31.Re1 Qg4 32.Rxe4 Rxh2+; and 30.Bb4 (to protect square e1) 30...a5! 31.Bd6 Rh6 32.c5 Be4 33.Re1 Qd3 =+. Maybe there are stronger lines for Black. But basically the problems seem to be on White's side.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #286 - 10/31/11 at 09:35:50
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 10/31/11 at 03:01:17:
[quote author=1714385A0 link=1311509071/281#281">Markovich wrote on 10/30/11 at 22:44:02:
Looks like Black has nice play after 8.Bxc6 bxc6 9.O-O d6 10.Qe4 (10.d4 Qg6 transposes to a line above and 10.d3 Bg4 is good for Black) O-O 11.d4 (I don't see what White has after 11.d3) Qf7 (anticipates 12.Bg5) 12.dxe5 d5 because of the halfopen f-file, the d5-c5 centre and the pair of Bishops.


Probably more critical is 12.Qxc6, intending 12...Be6 13.dxe5 Bd5 14.Qc3 Qg6 15.Ne1

I had studied this in the move-order 8.0-0 0-0 9.Qe4 d6 10.Bxc6 bxc6 11.d4 (11.Qxc6 Bg4!). My main line was 11...Qf5 which equalizes on the spot after 12.Qxf5, or White has to play 12.Qxc6 Bd7 with full compensation for Black. But 11...Qf7 (MNb) seems to be just as good. After 14.Qc3 Rad8!? =, where do you develop your Bc1?

MNb wrote on 10/30/11 at 18:08:02:
Very nice indeed. TP's analysis needs to be expanded a bit: 
16.Qg3 Qxg3 17.hxg3 d4 18.b3 Bd6 19.Nd5 Rf5 20.c4 dxc3 21.Nxc3 Be5 22.Bb2 c4 and Black is very active.
A move later: 16.Nd5 Bd6 17.Qg3 (the longer I look at 17.f4 the less I like it after Bb7!) Qe6 18.Qd3 c4 19.Qxc4 Rb4 20.Qd3 (too many moves with the Queen) Ba6 21.Nxb4 Bxd3 22.Nd3 with an unusual material balance; Black is active again.

20...Ba6 isn't bad. But look at 20...Rh4! 21.f4 Rh5!, White has to fight for survival. It may be a draw, but it is hard for White. [/quote]

After 22.c4 (more or less forced) how do you continue, the best I could find was Bc5 23. Kh1 and then Qg4 threatening Bf5 and Rh2. Now 24.h3 looks too slow after Re8 and 25... Re2. But 24. Rf3 Bf5 25. Qf1 looks alright since I am not sure if Be4 works I haven't not found out how to deal with 26. Be3 which may be ok for white. Best seems to be Bf3 27 Bc5 Qh3 28.Qg1 Re8 29.Ne7 (29.gf3 Re2 -+)  Kf7 30. Bb4/a3/d6. The position still looks complicated 

Now 23...Qg4 looks a bit strange but 23...Bb7 does not impress me either Simply 24.Bd2 looks good enough.   
And after 23...Ba6 24. b4 takes the sting out of Rd5

Are there better plans for black?
« Last Edit: 11/01/11 at 00:50:32 by Markovich »  
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