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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Spanish repertoire (Read 374896 times)
punter
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #435 - 12/21/12 at 00:00:45
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I think 8.d4 gives white an edge if black takes the pawn but after 8..d6 we are forced to play c3-d4 main line instead of c3-h3 main line which might not be to everyone's liking (althought this variation is popular lately and serious try for white, it also cuts amount of work as there are no Breyer's, Zaitsev's, Chigorins etc which are all tough nuts to crack).
  
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Markovich
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #434 - 12/20/12 at 13:13:08
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Ametanoitos wrote on 12/07/12 at 10:06:50:
By the way, strong seems to be:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 O-O 8. c3 d5 9. exd5 Nxd5 10. Nxe5 Nxe5 11. Rxe5 c6 12. d4 Bd6 13. Re1 Qh4 14. g3 Qh3 15.Re4 g5 16. Qf1 Qh5 17. f3 Bf5 18. Nd2 Rae8 19. Rxe8 Rxe8 20. Ne4 Bxe4 21. fxe4 Rxe4 22. Bd1 g4 23. Bd2 c5 24. Qg2 Re6 25. Bb3 c4 26. Bc2 Ne3 27. Bxe3 Rxe3 28. Rf1 b4 

(so far PFREN's analysis)

29. cxb4 Bxb4 30. Bd1! and White has some edge.

Any improvements?


I don't know that I see much advantage for White after 30...Rd3 31.Qb7 Rd2.  Do you? White's h-pawn must advance, either one or two squares, and then Black's g-pawn falls.  But Black's bishop goes to d6, and White doesn't seem to have the basis of a win, in my reckoning.

I think whatever we recommend shouldn't involve analysis out beyond move 30.  Either it should yield something resembling a stable advantage before then, or we should recommend an anti-Marshall, probably 8.h3.
« Last Edit: 12/20/12 at 16:07:42 by Markovich »  
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walkingterrapin
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #433 - 12/14/12 at 15:45:59
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I agree with punter there is no good way of tackling the marshall, you should start with the anti lines right away with either a4 or d3.  The lines in the marshall will not give white a good chess game even if he keeps an advantage.
  
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punter
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #432 - 12/13/12 at 14:15:53
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Well, Re1 c3 setup is becoming a sideline these days in top GM practice but if you want to concentrate on that then fine. I just think it's not a practical choice.
If you find that analysis somehow along the way please link me. I spent some time banging my head vs Marshall so I am interested in that.
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #431 - 12/13/12 at 12:17:25
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Punter, please take a look at the subject we are discussing. We were supposed to make a Spanish repertoire for White in the Spanish, so Marshall is quite an important subject we should concentrate at some point. Also, above (and in another thread i cannot remember now) me and FM Buecker gave analysis on 18...Nf6 and the conclusion was the White some some edge.
  
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punter
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #430 - 12/10/12 at 03:00:44
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18...Nf6.

Imo you shouldn't concentrate on Marshall. It's extremely sound and basically a race who remembers more.
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #429 - 12/07/12 at 10:06:50
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By the way, strong seems to be:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 O-O 8. c3 d5 9. exd5 Nxd5 10. Nxe5 Nxe5 11. Rxe5 c6 12. d4 Bd6 13. Re1 Qh4 14. g3 Qh3 15.Re4 g5 16. Qf1 Qh5 17. f3 Bf5 18. Nd2 Rae8 19. Rxe8 Rxe8 20. Ne4 Bxe4 21. fxe4 Rxe4 22. Bd1 g4 23. Bd2 c5 24. Qg2 Re6 25. Bb3 c4 26. Bc2 Ne3 27. Bxe3 Rxe3 28. Rf1 b4 

(so far PFREN's analysis)

29. cxb4 Bxb4 30. Bd1! and White has some edge.

Any improvements?
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #428 - 12/06/12 at 17:24:05
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I cannot help but admire your work on this. There are many little details which i investigated but i didn't really find anything more than a symbolic edge for White. Maybe we should investigate this one:

Hotting, Arend
Thomson, Thomas
corr, 2004

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 O-O 8. c3 d5 9. exd5 Nxd5 10. Nxe5 Nxe5 11. Rxe5 c6 12. d4 Bd6 13. Re1 Qh4 14. g3 Qh3 15.Re4 g5 16. Qf1 Qh5 17. f3 Bf5 18. Re1 Rae8 19. Nd2 Bd3 20. Qf2 Nf6 21. Re3 Rxe3 22. Qxe3 Qg6 23. Ne4 Bxe4 24. fxe4 Nxe4 25. a4 Re8 26. axb5 Bf4 27. Qd3 Bxc1 28. Rxc1 axb5 29. Rf1 Re7 30. Qe3 h6 31. g4 Kf8 32. d5 1-0

Please note that the same position can also arise by transposition of moves after 18.Nd2 Rae8 19.Re1.

Now that i think of it, it may be a more practical choice to choose the move order of the above game if someone wants to avoid the theory of the 18.Nd2 Nf6 line. Just an idea.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #427 - 09/12/12 at 11:42:25
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OK, here it is. It was done without much checking, so you'd better check it yourself, but I believe the variations given are quite valid. White has nothing- factly I think the whole variation is more tricky to handle properly as white.
Computers give at first a preponderance to white's pawn, but following natural moves they abruptly change their mind at some point. The Marshal is just too tough to die by such an unassuming line.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #426 - 09/12/12 at 08:16:16
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Vass wrote on 09/12/12 at 06:35:24:
PANFR wrote on 09/11/12 at 23:23:38:
Personally, I find the Marshal line given by Ametanoitos quite clever, but still offering no advantage at all to white.
17.f3 Bf5 18.Nd2 Rae8! and now:
- 19.Qf2?! Bxe4 20.fe4 f5! and Black is at least equal.
- 19.Bd1!? Bh3 20.Qf2 f5 21.Rxe8 Rxe8 22.a4 Re7! 23.Nb3 Qe8 24.Bd2 Bf4! was shortly drawn at a correspondence game. White can try to improve with 22.Nb3, but after 22...f4 23.g4 Qf7 24.Nd2 Qg6! 25.Ne4 Bc7 26.Nc5 h5 Black stands very well.
- 19.Rxe8 Rxe8 20.Ne4 Bxe4 21.fe4 Rxe4 22.Bd1 g4 has been played seven times (by transposition). White was not able to win a single game.

Well, in your line 19.Bd1!? Bh3 20.Qf2 f5 21.Rxe8 Rxe8 22.a4 Re7! 23.Nb3 Qe8 24.Bd2 Bf4! the move 21.Rxe8 is not forced at all. I think 21.Re2 is better instead.  Wink


Black still has strong counterplay by sensibly playing down the e-file, it seems.  I wouldn't worry a bit about such a computerized move, say after 21...Rxe2 22.Bxe2 Re8. I will post some analysis soon.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #425 - 09/12/12 at 06:35:24
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PANFR wrote on 09/11/12 at 23:23:38:
Personally, I find the Marshal line given by Ametanoitos quite clever, but still offering no advantage at all to white.
17.f3 Bf5 18.Nd2 Rae8! and now:
- 19.Qf2?! Bxe4 20.fe4 f5! and Black is at least equal.
- 19.Bd1!? Bh3 20.Qf2 f5 21.Rxe8 Rxe8 22.a4 Re7! 23.Nb3 Qe8 24.Bd2 Bf4! was shortly drawn at a correspondence game. White can try to improve with 22.Nb3, but after 22...f4 23.g4 Qf7 24.Nd2 Qg6! 25.Ne4 Bc7 26.Nc5 h5 Black stands very well.
- 19.Rxe8 Rxe8 20.Ne4 Bxe4 21.fe4 Rxe4 22.Bd1 g4 has been played seven times (by transposition). White was not able to win a single game.

Well, in your line 19.Bd1!? Bh3 20.Qf2 f5 21.Rxe8 Rxe8 22.a4 Re7! 23.Nb3 Qe8 24.Bd2 Bf4! the move 21.Rxe8 is not forced at all. I think 21.Re2 is better instead.  Wink
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #424 - 09/11/12 at 23:23:38
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Personally, I find the Marshal line given by Ametanoitos quite clever, but still offering no advantage at all to white.
17.f3 Bf5 18.Nd2 Rae8! and now:
- 19.Qf2?! Bxe4 20.fe4 f5! and Black is at least equal.
- 19.Bd1!? Bh3 20.Qf2 f5 21.Rxe8 Rxe8 22.a4 Re7! 23.Nb3 Qe8 24.Bd2 Bf4! was shortly drawn at a correspondence game. White can try to improve with 22.Nb3, but after 22...f4 23.g4 Qf7 24.Nd2 Qg6! 25.Ne4 Bc7 26.Nc5 h5 Black stands very well.
- 19.Rxe8 Rxe8 20.Ne4 Bxe4 21.fe4 Rxe4 22.Bd1 g4 has been played seven times (by transposition). White was not able to win a single game.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #423 - 08/04/12 at 21:06:55
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Ametanoitos wrote on 08/04/12 at 12:46:46:
OK, lets move on. Btw, did we "solve" 3...f5?

Yes, I think so, in the sense that White has +=.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #422 - 08/04/12 at 12:46:46
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OK, lets move on. Btw, did we "solve" 3...f5?
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #421 - 08/04/12 at 08:00:08
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Ender wrote on 08/03/12 at 08:37:36:
How about 
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Bb4 4.c3 Ba5 5.Qa4 Nge7!?

I think white is better, but black is not lost yet.

The analysis in Bernhard Lach: Die Alapin-Variante in der Spanischen Eröffnung (Schwieberdingen 1995) goes 5...Nge7 6.Nxe5 Nxe5 7.Qxa5 N7c6 8.Qa4 Qg5. "Black has sufficient counterplay for the pawn, e.g. 9.0-0 Nf3+ 10.Kh1 Qf4" - Lach. Checking my analysis file, the critical reply is 9.Kf1!. White has no weakness which Black could easily attack. This is indeed one of the better variations for Black, but I haven't found equality, and +/- seems a fair assessment. 

In my Marshall analysis, variation 30.axb5, White can try 38.Kf2 instead of 38.Bf4. Again I believe that Black holds, but that's not the point. Ametanoitos' suggestion must be assessed as +=, no question about it.
  
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