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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Spanish repertoire (Read 375006 times)
MNb
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #60 - 07/25/11 at 20:02:13
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Got it.



Now I only have to learn what the codes for ±, = are etcetera.
« Last Edit: 07/26/11 at 02:07:41 by MNb »  
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MNb
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #59 - 07/25/11 at 19:34:35
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MNb wrote on 07/25/11 at 16:18:41:
[7...Qg5 8.Qe2 Nf6 9.Nxa7+ Bd7 10.Bxd7+ Nxd7 11.f4 Qc5 12.Nb5 Qxc2 13.d4±

Punter possibly means 11...Qf5 12.Nb5 0-0-0 which never has been played before. I would like to see some of his analysis after 13.a4 and 13.0-0.

I would like to keep track of all the 3...f5 stuff. But as indicated above I have problems with the pgn-code for the subvariations at the moment.
I certainly don't know how to create a pgn-file as an attachment.

@Markovich:
all the best again.
I think we should not be too strict on your 12-moves limit. Some of the lines I gave above would not make sense if I cut them off. I think it's more fruitful only to give the relevant lines. In my post above Black still has quite a few unmentioned deviations, but anyone can find in a book or in a database how they should be dealt with.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #58 - 07/25/11 at 18:53:28
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punter wrote on 07/25/11 at 17:55:42:
Quote:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4
(4...Nf6 5.exf5 Bc5 6.0-0 0-0 7.Nxe5 Nd4 8.Nf3 Nxb5 9.Nxb5 d5 10.Nbd4 Ng4 11.h3 Ne5 12.Nxe5 Bxd4 13.Nf3 Bb6 14.g4 Qf6 15.d4 Bxf5 16.gxf5 Qxf5 17.Ne5 Rae8 18.Qg4+-;


Sweet, but the move for black is 12...Qf5 not 12...Qc5 and after 13.Nb5 0-0-0 a lot more theory but black is doing just fine.


Since there is no 12...Qc5 in the passage you quote, I can't tell what you're talking about, so please say.

@hacker: what we will require is a standard pgn file for each major line we consider. The Jaenisch is such a line, so take MNb's contribution and turn it into pgn. Then modify as necessary as others contribute.  I believe we can attach pgn files here, so publish what you have after each major revision, with indicative title (e.g. Jaenisch) and date of revision.

@everyone: remember that we only need 12 moves deep the first time through. Add more only if you are fairly certain that what your're adding will be the last word.






« Last Edit: 07/25/11 at 21:11:20 by Markovich »  
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Göran
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #57 - 07/25/11 at 17:59:45
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Markovich wrote on 07/25/11 at 15:56:58:
TN wrote on 07/25/11 at 14:30:08:
Edit: My GM friend uses his repertoire file for coaching so I can't just steal from his file for our repertoire file.


Well then, this somewhere-existing file isn't useful to us.

@everyone: Who's going to start keeping notes (in pgn, I would suggest)? Normally I'd be happy to, but I'm convalescing after a week in the hospital following an outpatient procedure that accidentally injured me rather badly (I am however expected to make a complete recovery)


Nobody seams to have noticed your post. 

I don't know if I am up to it. Haven't done this kind of investigation befor and certainly not this kind of documentation. I haven't a clue how to document it.

Since I intended to learn more about the Ruy Lopez and like ChessPub Forum a lot  I am willing to at least start if 1) Markovich will help me out in the beginning and if 2) anybody that think the documentation will have a too low standard will frankly tell me and be so kind and advice me.

I don't mind at all if anyone more experienced will do the documentation.
  
What kind of proof is that?
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punter
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #56 - 07/25/11 at 17:55:42
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Quote:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4
(4...Nf6 5.exf5 Bc5 6.0-0 0-0 7.Nxe5 Nd4 8.Nf3 Nxb5 9.Nxb5 d5 10.Nbd4 Ng4 11.h3 Ne5 12.Nxe5 Bxd4 13.Nf3 Bb6 14.g4 Qf6 15.d4 Bxf5 16.gxf5 Qxf5 17.Ne5 Rae8 18.Qg4+-;


Sweet, but the move for black is 12...Qf5 not 12...Qc5 and after 13.Nb5 0-0-0 a lot more theory but black is doing just fine.
  
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MNb
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #55 - 07/25/11 at 16:18:41
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OK, a summary on 3...f5 so far:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4
(4...Nf6 5.exf5 Bc5 6.0-0 0-0 7.Nxe5 Nd4 8.Nf3 Nxb5 9.Nxb5 d5 10.Nbd4 Ng4 11.h3 Ne5 12.Nxe5 Bxd4 13.Nf3 Bb6 14.g4 Qf6 15.d4 Bxf5 16.gxf5 Qxf5 17.Ne5 Rae8 18.Qg4+-; 
4...Nd4 5.exf5 (5.Bc4) 5...c6 (5...Nf6) 6.Nxd4 exd4 7.Qh5+ Ke7 8.O-O Nf6 (8...dxc3 9.d4±) 9.Re1+ Kd6 10.Ne4+ Nxe4 11.Rxe4 cxb5 12.d3 Kc6 13.Bg5±)

5.Nxe4 d5
[5...Nf6]

6.Nxe5 dxe4 7.Nxc6 Qd5
[7...Qg5 8.Qe2 Nf6 9.Nxa7+ Bd7 10.Bxd7+ Nxd7 11.f4 Qc5 12.Nb5 Qxc2 13.d4±]

8.c4 Qd6 9.Nxa7+ Bd7 10.Bxd7+ Qxd7 11.Qh5+ g6 12.Qe5+ Kf7 13.Nb5 c6 14.Qd4 Nf6 15.Qxd7+ Nxd7 16.Nc3 Nc5 17.0-0 Bg7÷

For some reason I don't get the subvariations on the board.
« Last Edit: 07/25/11 at 19:13:18 by MNb »  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #54 - 07/25/11 at 16:16:31
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Either 11...d6 or 11...Re8! seem more precise (than Nb4), =. 

The move a3 takes away the square a3 for the knight, so it seems less natural here. 

To be fair, at the end of my line (14...Qb6), White does stand better.
  
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MNb
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #53 - 07/25/11 at 16:02:31
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OK, so in the Jänisch only 7...Qd5 and 5...Nf6 are still open.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/25/11 at 15:12:08:
3...Nd4 4.Nxd4 exd4 5.0-0 a5: 9 games in my database: +5, =3, -1 (72%). I had looked at 6.Bc4 c6 7.a4 (more logical than 7.a3, no?), but wasn't convinced: 7...Nf6 8.Re1 Bc5 9.e5 Nd5 10.Bxd5 cxd5 11.Na3 0-0 12.Nb5 d6 13.Nxd6 d3! 14.cxd3 Qb6, about =.   

I agree with you on 7.a4 vs. 7.a3, but liked to see it confirmed by a much stronger player than I am.
10.d3 0-0 11.Qf3 Nb4 12.Na3 d5 13.exd6 Qxd6 14.c3 and White is somewhat better.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #52 - 07/25/11 at 15:56:58
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TN wrote on 07/25/11 at 14:30:08:
Edit: My GM friend uses his repertoire file for coaching so I can't just steal from his file for our repertoire file.


Well then, this somewhere-existing file isn't useful to us.

@everyone: Who's going to start keeping notes (in pgn, I would suggest)? Normally I'd be happy to, but I'm convalescing after a week in the hospital following an outpatient procedure that accidentally injured me rather badly (I am however expected to make a complete recovery)
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #51 - 07/25/11 at 15:42:20
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MNb wrote on 07/25/11 at 10:31:50:
8.d4 is illegal. So is 9.d4 after 8...Nf6 (iso 8...dxc3). So could you check too what Sokolov has to say about 8...Nf6 ?


As you suggested, the line is 8 ...Nf6 9. Re1+ Kd6 10. Ne4+! Nxe4 11. Rxe4 cxb5 12. d3 Kc6 13.Bg5 Qc7 14. Qe8! b6 15. f6 and now 15 ...Bb7? but this really loses. Black still is worse after any other move, like 15 ...Qd6 followed by 16.a4.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #50 - 07/25/11 at 15:32:52
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Göran wrote on 07/25/11 at 13:23:10:
As I understand it the process of reaching the goal (activate the section) is as important as the goal itself. 

Concerning Sokolov and 5.Bc4
The move order 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 Nd4 is not accurate for Black. Now 5.Bc4 is not that dangerous for Black (5.exf5 better). He should be fine after precise play e.g. 5 Bc4 d6 (or 5...c6!?) 

1) 6.exf5 Bxf5 7.Nxd4 exd4 8.Qf3 Ne7 9.Nb5 d5 10.Be2 Qd7 11.Nxd4 0-0-0 and Black has play for the pawn.
2) 6.d3 Nxf3+ 7.Qf3 Nf6 8.Bg5 c6 9.0-0-0 where 9...h6  leads to an unclear game and 9...f4! is better for Black after 10.g3 h6 11.Bxf6 Qxf4+ 13.Qxf4 exf4 14.h4 Bg4 15.Rdg1 h5 16.d4 Be7.

Hope it's what fling refered to.


That is correct.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #49 - 07/25/11 at 15:12:08
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MNb wrote on 07/25/11 at 14:45:42:
3...a5
Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/25/11 at 13:54:38:
In the four games in the database with 4.0-0 Nd4, Black scored 62%. It is a kind of Bird's Variation, where a7-a5 is often useful.

OK. The main line against the Spanish Bird begins with 3...Nd4 4.Nxd4 exd4 5.0-0. Why should 5...a5 be useful here? I have found three games with this; White scores 2˝ points.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/25/11 at 14:24:33:
There are several lines, none of them a clear refutation.

I think establishing a solid edge is enough.
6.Bc4 c6 7.a4 and 7.a3 look sufficient for this.

3...Nd4 4.Nxd4 exd4 5.0-0 a5: 9 games in my database: +5, =3, -1 (72%). I had looked at 6.Bc4 c6 7.a4 (more logical than 7.a3, no?), but wasn't convinced: 7...Nf6 8.Re1 Bc5 9.e5 Nd5 10.Bxd5 cxd5 11.Na3 0-0 12.Nb5 d6 13.Nxd6 d3! 14.cxd3 Qb6, about =.   
  
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MNb
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #48 - 07/25/11 at 14:45:42
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3...a5
Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/25/11 at 13:54:38:
In the four games in the database with 4.0-0 Nd4, Black scored 62%. It is a kind of Bird's Variation, where a7-a5 is often useful.

OK. The main line against the Spanish Bird begins with 3...Nd4 4.Nxd4 exd4 5.0-0. Why should 5...a5 be useful here? I have found three games with this; White scores 2˝ points.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/25/11 at 14:24:33:
There are several lines, none of them a clear refutation.

I think establishing a solid edge is enough.
6.Bc4 c6 7.a4 and 7.a3 look sufficient for this.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #47 - 07/25/11 at 14:30:08
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Edit: My GM friend uses his repertoire file for coaching so I can't just steal from his file for our repertoire file.
  
All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #46 - 07/25/11 at 14:29:13
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/25/11 at 14:03:30:
Göran wrote on 07/25/11 at 13:56:41:
I have run Houdini in Aquarium/Idea this aftrernoon. She(?) proposes  4.0-0 Nd4 6.Bc4.

(5.Bc4) 5...Nxf3+ 6.Qxf3 Qf6 7.Qe3 c6, and now?


First prop from Houdini is 8.Nc3 b5 9.Be2.
I will run it over night.

Will also add TN's suggestion 4.0-0 Nd4 5.Nd4 ed4 6.Bc4
  
What kind of proof is that?
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