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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Spanish repertoire (Read 374949 times)
fling
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #75 - 07/26/11 at 09:28:10
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Göran wrote on 07/26/11 at 09:12:51:
Relic from yesterday.

edit: 5.Nxd4 ed4 6.Bc4 (+0,41) c6 7.a4 (7.a3) could be a bit high so I've started an IDeA project with 7,a4, 7.a3 and 7.Re1 (Houdini's current suggestion)


Sorry to interrupt, but this thread is so interesting that I have to say something.

I think that we need to either refer to the original post, or post whole lines or PGN-files to clearly keep track of what the analysis is about. It will make the discussion quicker IMO.

We already have several posts asking "what do you actually mean?". Normally, this is probably ok, but we are already at page 5 of the thread and only a few lines have been discussed.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #74 - 07/26/11 at 09:24:18
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MNb wrote on 07/25/11 at 20:02:13:
Got it.

Now I only have to learn what the codes for ±, = are etcetera.


OT: What was the solution? And does anyone have a fix for the evaluation codes?
  
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Göran
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #73 - 07/26/11 at 09:12:51
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Relic from yesterday.

edit: 5.Nxd4 ed4 6.Bc4 (+0,41) c6 7.a4 (7.a3) could be a bit high so I've started an IDeA project with 7,a4, 7.a3 and 7.Re1 (Houdini's current suggestion)
  
What kind of proof is that?
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #72 - 07/26/11 at 09:10:09
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Göran wrote on 07/26/11 at 08:28:24:
Ruy Lopez 3...a5
(1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a5)
Houdini 1.5a runnung over night on a 2 core machine.

It seams to be +/=


1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a5 

     Houdini's initial suggestion     
     4.0-0 Nd4 5.Bc4 (+0,37) Nxf3 6.Qxf3 

                         Stefan Bücker's prop to investigate
                         6...Qf6 7.Qe3 c6 (+0,37) 8.Nc3 b5 9.Be2

             MNb's and TN's initial suggestion
             5.Nxd4 ed4 6.Bc4 (+0,41) c6 7.a4 (7.a3)

             Stefan Bücker's initial main line
             5.Nxd4 exd4 6.c3 (+0.33) c6 (Bc5) 7.Bc4 (7.Be2 d5) 7...b5 8.Bd3 Bc5 
             9.Na3 d6 (Ne7) 10. Nc2 Qf6 (dxc3) 11.cxd4 Bxd4 12.Nxd4 Qxd4 13.Qc2 Ne7
                          14.a4 (+0,29) b4 15.b3 Be6 (Qxa1?!) 
                          14.Qc3 (0,33) Qxc3 15.dxc3 Be6


Good - so 3...a5 is better than the Jaenisch!  Cool

Is 8.Nc3 b5 9.Be2 a relic from yesterday or is it the result of the analysis?
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #71 - 07/26/11 at 08:48:32
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/26/11 at 06:49:09:

Edit: I am no expert of the Jaenisch. But since Sokolov explicitly says that he "analyzed 11.f4 for a while", this material "looks" indeed like his own analysis. (The book has no bibliography - do these publishers never learn?)


To be honest I own that book and Sokolov seems one of those GM's that does his own work and doesn't really looks into other opening manuals (expect perhaps for informants). This is a sentiment I have seen expressed by numerous GM's: give me a database and an old book, the rest I'll figure out myself (probably a strong chess engine will also be a par tof this approach nowadays).
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #70 - 07/26/11 at 08:28:24
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Ruy Lopez 3...a5
(1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a5)
Houdini 1.5a runnung over night on a 2 core machine.

It seams to be +/=


1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a5 

     Houdini's initial suggestion      
     4.0-0 Nd4 5.Bc4 (+0,37) Nxf3 6.Qxf3 

                         Stefan Bücker's prop to investigate
                         6...Qf6 7.Qe3 c6 (+0,37) 8.Nc3 b5 9.Be2

             MNb's and TN's initial suggestion
             5.Nxd4 ed4 6.Bc4 (+0,41) c6 7.a4 (7.a3)

             Stefan Bücker's initial main line
             5.Nxd4 exd4 6.c3 (+0.33) c6 (Bc5) 7.Bc4 (7.Be2 d5) 7...b5 8.Bd3 Bc5 
             9.Na3 d6 (Ne7) 10. Nc2 Qf6 (dxc3) 11.cxd4 Bxd4 12.Nxd4 Qxd4 13.Qc2 Ne7
                          14.a4 (+0,29) b4 15.b3 Be6 (Qxa1?!) 
                          14.Qc3 (0,33) Qxc3 15.dxc3 Be6

  
What kind of proof is that?
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #69 - 07/26/11 at 08:10:10
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MNb wrote on 07/26/11 at 07:25:08:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/26/11 at 06:49:09:
However, 16...Nf6? in his analysis is a mistake. Black equalizes with 16...Qg8! 17.Qb3 Nc5 18.Nxc5 Bxc5 19.Rf7 Rd7 20.Rxd7 Qxb3 21.axb3 Kxd7 22.Ra4 Re8 23.b4 Bb6 24.Ra3 Rf8 25.Rh3 Bf2+ 27.Ke2 Bg1.

Granted. But 24.b3 (finally developing that Bishop) looks like an improvement to me. If Black follows the same plan with 24...Rf8 White has 25.b5 Rf2 26.bxc6+ bxc6 27.Rxe4 Rxg2 28.Ba3. So += still seems fair to me.
Do you have something better for White earlier on perhaps?

24.b3 Re5 is completely equal. 
You can recommend 13.0-0 Qc5+ when Sokolov only considers 14.Kh1? Qxc2 ... "with a better game for Black" (Sokolov). Instead, 14.Rf2! Qxc2 (else 15.Nc3) 15.d4 +=. I guess that Sokolov's attempts to prove comp. for two pawns have bigger flaws, but for our purpose one sound extra pawn is enough. Call it += since Black has a little something for it. 

That leaves 11...Qa5 12.Nb5 Bc5 13.Qxe4+ Kd8 14.Nd4 Re8 ... comp. (Sokolov). But 14.Nd4 is weak; imo 14.Qxb7 Rb8 15.Qxc7+ is +/-.
  
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MNb
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #68 - 07/26/11 at 07:25:08
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/26/11 at 06:49:09:
However, 16...Nf6? in his analysis is a mistake. Black equalizes with 16...Qg8! 17.Qb3 Nc5 18.Nxc5 Bxc5 19.Rf7 Rd7 20.Rxd7 Qxb3 21.axb3 Kxd7 22.Ra4 Re8 23.b4 Bb6 24.Ra3 Rf8 25.Rh3 Bf2+ 27.Ke2 Bg1.

Granted. But 24.b3 (finally developing that Bishop) looks like an improvement to me. If Black follows the same plan with 24...Rf8 White has 25.b5 Rf2 26.bxc6+ bxc6 27.Rxe4 Rxg2 28.Ba3. So += still seems fair to me.
Do you have something better for White earlier on perhaps?

Jonathan Tait wrote on 07/26/11 at 07:20:42:
It's good for White, sure, but it's not such a simple matter to win.

Again granted, but that's not the point of this thread. The point is to build a repertoire for White with 3.Bb5. So again the question is: do you have something better for White perhaps? If not, this line remains our choice.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #67 - 07/26/11 at 07:20:42
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MNb wrote on 07/25/11 at 03:30:00:
We already know that 3...f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 d5 6.Nxe5 dxe4 7.Nxc6 Qg5 8.Qe2 Nf6 9.Nxa7+ Bd7 10.Bxd7+ Nxd7 11.f4 Qc5 12.Nb5 Qxc2 13.d4! is very pleasant for White.


It's good for White, sure, but it's not such a simple matter to win.


edit: games removed as irrelevant to the thread
« Last Edit: 07/26/11 at 10:30:15 by Jonathan Tait »  
blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #66 - 07/26/11 at 06:49:09
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Markovich wrote on 07/25/11 at 21:43:49:

If he means 11...Qf5, he'll have to explain how Black lives after 12.Nb5 O-O-O 13.a4 and I'm going to ram that little a-guy right down to a6.


MNb wrote on 07/26/11 at 02:06:27:
11...Qf5 12.Nb5 O-O-O 13.Qc4 c6 14.Nd4 Qxf4 15.Ne6 Qf7 16.Rf1 Nf6 indeed seems += after 17.b3. There are more ambitious tries (notably 13.g4 and 12.g4) but they also look more risky. So let's stick to the GM's opinion indeed. I have added the line in my post above and made it the main line of 7...Qg5.

When I studied 3...Bc5, I didn't find Sokolov's analysis in the last part of The Ruy Lopez Revisited (2009) very useful. But his 6-page analysis of 11.f4 here in the Jaenisch is excellent and "grandmasterly". It is on pp. 36-42 - so he was probably still full of energy Smiley . Not so nice is the awful organization of the material - how can you give the two best lines 11...Qf5 as "C33" and 11...Qa5 as "C35", but C31, C32 and C34 cover insufficient black alternatives?

Regarding 13.a4 (Markovich): Sokolov analyzes this on 2.5 pages  (pp. 38-40), e.g. 13...Bc5 14.a5 c6 15.Nc3 Rhe8 16.a6 b5 17.Rf1, ending with 29...h5 "and Black keeps pressure - it is difficult for White to coordinate his pieces." HIs conclusion is that 13.Qc4 may be best. 

However, 16...Nf6? in his analysis is a mistake. Black equalizes with 16...Qg8! 17.Qb3 Nc5 18.Nxc5 Bxc5 19.Rf7 Rd7 20.Rxd7 Qxb3 21.axb3 Kxd7 22.Ra4 Re8 23.b4 Bb6 24.Ra3 Rf8 25.Rh3 Bf2+ 27.Ke2 Bg1. 

In my opinion key ideas in the pgn should be credited. Sokolov advises against practically all moves played in the database, but regards 11...Qa5 (so far no game!) as giving Black sufficient compensation, and analyzes 11...Qf5 in even greater detail. With the latter move, I see only one computer game: 12.Nb5 0-0-0 13.0-0 Qc5+ (later drawn). His analyses are not perfect, but that's not the point. The repertoire may or may not become a relevant source, but without basic infos it wouldn't be half as useful as it could be.

Edit: I am no expert of the Jaenisch. But since Sokolov explicitly says that he "analyzed 11.f4 for a while", this material "looks" indeed like his own analysis. (The book has no bibliography - do these publishers never learn?)
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #65 - 07/26/11 at 02:06:27
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Markovich wrote on 07/25/11 at 23:50:35:
Do you realize that you're talking about the 9.Nxa7+ variation?

Probably yes:

punter wrote on 07/25/11 at 22:18:20:
I am not aware if any human played it though as I don't have any human database to look it up.

Punter is talking about computer vs. computer games, which I don't save in my database. Indeed Rybka prefers 11...Qf5 iso 11...Qc5 too.

11...Qf5 12.Nb5 O-O-O 13.Qc4 c6 14.Nd4 Qxf4 15.Ne6 Qf7 16.Rf1 Nf6 indeed seems += after 17.b3. There are more ambitious tries (notably 13.g4 and 12.g4) but they also look more risky. So let's stick to the GM's opinion indeed. I have added the line in my post above and made it the main line of 7...Qg5.

In the end 5...Nf6 will be the main line because of the Jänisch because of Radjabov.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #64 - 07/26/11 at 00:48:25
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Actually, I think we'll just follow Sokolov and declare that 11...Qf5 12.Nb5 O-O-O 13.Qc4 c6 !4.Nd4 Qxf4 15.Ne6 Qf7 16.Rf1 Nf6 is +=. Unless anyone has anything further, that is.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #63 - 07/25/11 at 23:50:35
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punter wrote on 07/25/11 at 22:18:20:
Quote:
6.Nxe5 dxe4 7.Nxc6 Qd5
[7...Qg5 8.Qe2 Nf6 9.Nxa7+ Bd7 10.Bxd7+ Nxd7 11.f4 Qc5 12.Nb5 Qxc2 13.d4±]


Sorry, I meant this line, I pasted the wrong one. Here the move for black is 11..Qf5 etc.
It has been played before hundred of times already and black is doing fine. I am not aware if any human played it though as I don't have any human database to look it up Smiley

I am not aware what is pet variation you are talking about but Qf5 is the mainline here. Of course not known line ends in clear += in Janisch, wtf is this thinking, if there was such a line nobody would play Janisch anymore at the highest level. Same go for whole Spanish what we can hope is slightly more pleasant position for white and that's about it.
Giving a line which ends in +/- (as the one with Qc5) only proves that there were some dubious moves on the way.

Do you realize that you're talking about the 9.Nxa7+ variation? And if that is the case, may I suggest that you bring some (a) analysis and (b) sources?
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #62 - 07/25/11 at 22:18:20
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Quote:
6.Nxe5 dxe4 7.Nxc6 Qd5
[7...Qg5 8.Qe2 Nf6 9.Nxa7+ Bd7 10.Bxd7+ Nxd7 11.f4 Qc5 12.Nb5 Qxc2 13.d4±]


Sorry, I meant this line, I pasted the wrong one. Here the move for black is 11..Qf5 etc.
It has been played before hundred of times already and black is doing fine. I am not aware if any human played it though as I don't have any human database to look it up Smiley

I am not aware what is pet variation you are talking about but Qf5 is the mainline here. Of course not known line ends in clear += in Janisch, wtf is this thinking, if there was such a line nobody would play Janisch anymore at the highest level. Same go for whole Spanish what we can hope is slightly more pleasant position for white and that's about it.
Giving a line which ends in +/- (as the one with Qc5) only proves that there were some dubious moves on the way.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #61 - 07/25/11 at 21:43:49
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MNb wrote on 07/25/11 at 19:34:35:
MNb wrote on 07/25/11 at 16:18:41:
[7...Qg5 8.Qe2 Nf6 9.Nxa7+ Bd7 10.Bxd7+ Nxd7 11.f4 Qc5 12.Nb5 Qxc2 13.d4±

Punter possibly means 11...Qf5 12.Nb5 0-0-0 which never has been played before. I would like to see some of his analysis after 13.a4 and 13.0-0.

I would like to keep track of all the 3...f5 stuff. But as indicated above I have problems with the pgn-code for the subvariations at the moment.
I certainly don't know how to create a pgn-file as an attachment.

@Markovich:
all the best again.
I think we should not be too strict on your 12-moves limit. Some of the lines I gave above would not make sense if I cut them off. I think it's more fruitful only to give the relevant lines. In my post above Black still has quite a few unmentioned deviations, but anyone can find in a book or in a database how they should be dealt with.

If he means 11...Qf5, he'll have to explain how Black lives after 12.Nb5 O-O-O 13.a4 and I'm going to ram that little a-guy right down to a6.

I take your point about not being too rigid about 12 moves. What I want to ensure though is that we complete a high-level review of the entire Spanish before we go very deep anywhere. If anyone distracts from that by defending his pet variation to the death, I'll just cut him off.

Our rule for not considering some black option should not be that it can be found in a book, but that it fairly obviously produces += or better.
  
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