Gambit wrote on 07/26/11 at 06:12:00:

Who exactly is that "you"? Everybody but you, as usual?

Btw, only two years ago there were even three antipopes: Pulvermacher, Bawden and Corral. Still I would not conclude that RK-church is badly organized in our days.

Not strict at all. I just chose it as a convenient cut-off. If there's interest in discussing the events up to 1517 here, I have no problem. Perhaps if we get really involved in a specific question I'll send it to another topic.

ErictheRed wrote on 07/22/11 at 21:18:56:

At the time Constantine became Emperor Orthodox Christianity was well organized indeed - compared to other religions of course. So it remains an important factor.
Orthodox Catholicism was already well organized when Victor I became pope and that was still the 2nd Century. All other religions had nothing similar.

ErictheRed wrote on 07/22/11 at 21:18:56:

No, I didn't understand that indeed. I think we can speak of Orthodox Christianity already before the Council of Nicea. One reason is that imo that Council did not really cut down on variety. See Arius, Pelagius and Nestor to name the most famous ones; later also monophysitism arose.
In this respect both the Council of Nicea and Constantine's policy were a failure.

MNb wrote on 07/22/11 at 20:43:06:


I don't think it's accurate to say that Christianity was very well organzied from the beginning--it wasn't.  There was an incredibly diverse assortment of various groups that all thought of themselves as "Christians" in one way or another.  They argued vehemently amongst themselves, most lacked a clear leadership structure, etc.  Many Christians in one city differed substantially from Christians in another.  

Perhaps you don't understand what I mean when I say orthodox Christianity?  I essentially mean the Christianity that came out of the First Council of Nicea, and that has almost everything to do with Constantine's influence and desire to come up with "a" Christianity for his empire.  In many ways I think that the first 3 centuries of Christianity saw a religion that was far more varied in theology, doctrine, and practice than what we see today (and we all know how many differences between Christian churches exist today).  

Remember that one of the first things Constantine did as emperor was begin persecuting other Christians.  Not to sound too much like the Da Vinci Code (which I never read), but he really did instigate a Christian "purge."  When he was done, most non-orthodox Christians had converted to orthodoxy.  He also gave orthodox bishops secular powers to go along with the ecclesiastical ones.  Suddenly, a particular type of Christian architecture is permitted by the state.  Suddenly, the orthodox Bible is copied and distrubuted at public expense.  Non-canonical texts disappear; it's for these reasons that I say orthodox Christianity "made it" because of Constantine.