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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Openings that you would never play (Read 56444 times)
SWJediknight
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Re: Openings that you would never play
Reply #55 - 08/09/11 at 19:31:50
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To be fair, I do think the Latvian Gambit is sounder than the other lines that I listed.  As Stefan Bücker has noted, White's route to a significant advantage against 3.Nxe5 Nf6 is pretty narrow, after 3...Qf6 White must find 4.Nc4! (my previous preference 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Be2 only gives White a small advantage if Black finds 6...Qd8), and Black is doing OK against other third moves.  I doubt I would play it due to the fact that if I fancied a risky deviation from 2...Nc6 I would be more likely to opt for the Elephant Gambit (2...d5).

Tim McGrew once wrote an article on 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f6 3.Nxe5 Qe7 4.Nf3 (also 4.Nc4!? and 5.Ne3 is worth considering for White- Dennis Monokroussos) 4...d5 5.d3 dxe4 6.dxe4 Qxe4+ 7.Be2 Nc6, and subsequently castling queenside, which probably represents Black's only serious method of trying to make the line work.
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/mcgrew12.pdf
  
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Uhohspaghettio
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Re: Openings that you would never play
Reply #54 - 08/09/11 at 19:20:00
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I think "gambit" has a precise meaning in chess, that means to allow your opponent material where you can't legally take it back on exactly the next move.. eg. the queen's gambit.  
  
Also, 2. ...f6 would be better to be called the gambit move if any of them are, because f6 allows White the material, 3. ...Qe7 is just not taking back the material. Technically 3. ....Qe7 is declining White's "gambit".
  
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Fromper
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Re: Openings that you would never play
Reply #53 - 08/09/11 at 18:57:33
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kylemeister wrote on 08/09/11 at 18:31:18:
Well, there are gambits, and there is just giving up a pawn and weakening your position (and if Black isn't going to take the knight or retrieve the pawn with 3...Qe7, he presumably has to do something about the threat of Qh5+).


Yeah, I guess 3. ... Qe7 gets the "gambit" pawn back, so it's not a true gambit. I hadn't really looked at it in detail. I just meant that if I were to ever try it for kicks, I wouldn't play 3. ... fxe5, since that just loses instantly. 

  

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kylemeister
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Re: Openings that you would never play
Reply #52 - 08/09/11 at 18:31:18
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Well, there are gambits, and there is just giving up a pawn and weakening your position (and if Black isn't going to take the knight or retrieve the pawn with 3...Qe7, he presumably has to do something about the threat of Qh5+).
  
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Re: Openings that you would never play
Reply #51 - 08/09/11 at 18:15:00
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kylemeister wrote on 08/09/11 at 15:48:41:
Fromper wrote on 08/09/11 at 15:35:39:
but playing it as a gambit after 3. Nxe5


Does not compute.


1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f6 3. Nxe5, and black does NOT play 3. ... fxe5. Thus, black has given up a pawn and not tried to get the material back by taking the knight. That makes it a gambit. Not a good one, since I don't see what black thinks he's getting for the pawn, but below 1800 level, just getting my opponents into completely unfamiliar positions is sometimes compensation enough for a pawn.

  

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kylemeister
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Re: Openings that you would never play
Reply #50 - 08/09/11 at 15:48:41
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Fromper wrote on 08/09/11 at 15:35:39:
but playing it as a gambit after 3. Nxe5


Does not compute.
  
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Re: Openings that you would never play
Reply #49 - 08/09/11 at 15:35:39
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SWJediknight wrote on 08/09/11 at 09:33:40:
There aren't many openings out there that I can say I would definitely never play, as although I have a reputation for offbeat gambits (e.g. Göring, Scotch, Albin's, Portuguese/Jadoul, and Blackmar-Diemer) I occasionally wheel out something more mainstream for a change.  For example, I recently surprised one member of my local chess club with the continuation 1.d4 d5 2.c4!.

There are certain openings that I seriously doubt I would ever play though:
Fred Defence (1.e4 f5)
Damiano Defence (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f6)
Latvian Gambit (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5)
Jerome Gambit (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.Bxf7+)
Grob (1.g4)
Omega Gambit (1.d4 Nf6 2.e4)


I tried the Latvian in a correspondence theme tournament on chess.com, and I think I even won the tournament, but that says more about the level of the competition than my knowledge of the opening. 

I've actually considered looking at the Damiano just as an offbeat surprise, but playing it as a gambit after 3. Nxe5, rather than trying to take the knight and hold on. I know better.

  

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fling
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Re: Openings that you would never play
Reply #48 - 08/09/11 at 14:00:23
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MNb wrote on 08/08/11 at 20:48:32:
Jupp53 wrote on 08/08/11 at 17:07:16:
exchanging a center pawn against a wing pawn and making the Nd4 to an object for a lot of black attacking patterns - can this be right???? For me it's too confusing.

You forget that White has the more active pieces. Learning how to use them to good effect is mandatory for chess improvement. So you should play 3.d4 for the same reason as for playing the Open Games.
Now Fromper is right that this applies to the Morra Gambit as well. Like him I scored heavily with it - until I began to meet opponents who knew how to handle it. At that stage proving sufficient compensation against all possible black defences became a lot of work ...


I didn't answer the previous post by Jupp, sorry. But Mnb has a good point. It is easier to win against strong opponents with equal material. I agree though, that the Smith-Morra might not be unsound, though it is not less work to make it work than the Open variations, as been stated here before.

Back to Jupp. Chess is a lot about trade-offs. In the Open Sicilian, White trades a center pawn and semi-open c-file for a well-placed knight and a semi-open d-file. This has nothing to do with how high rated you are IMO. It is chess education. Even if you play the Closed Sicilian, there will be times you want to play d4 anyway as White. The trick is to know when, and an understanding of Open variations will inevitably help you.

I wouldn't be so dogmatic in classifying Open games as a first must, compared to your mentioned alternatives. They form a good basis for chess understanding. But you should know how to play lots of different positions well, as well as all phases of the game. Many endgames will teach you how to play well in open positions, much better compared to several lines in the main line Spanish e.g.
  
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TN
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Re: Openings that you would never play
Reply #47 - 08/09/11 at 12:05:14
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SWJediknight wrote on 08/09/11 at 09:33:40:
There aren't many openings out there that I can say I would definitely never play, as although I have a reputation for offbeat gambits (e.g. Göring, Scotch, Albin's, Portuguese/Jadoul, and Blackmar-Diemer) I occasionally wheel out something more mainstream for a change.  For example, I recently surprised one member of my local chess club with the continuation 1.d4 d5 2.c4!.

There are certain openings that I seriously doubt I would ever play though:
Fred Defence (1.e4 f5)
Damiano Defence (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f6)
Latvian Gambit (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5)
Jerome Gambit (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.Bxf7+)
Grob (1.g4)
Omega Gambit (1.d4 Nf6 2.e4)


I have played all of these, except for the Jerome Gambit. Admittedly in bullet and blitz only.
  

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SWJediknight
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Re: Openings that you would never play
Reply #46 - 08/09/11 at 09:33:40
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There aren't many openings out there that I can say I would definitely never play, as although I have a reputation for offbeat gambits (e.g. Göring, Scotch, Albin's, Portuguese/Jadoul, and Blackmar-Diemer) I occasionally wheel out something more mainstream for a change.  For example, I recently surprised one member of my local chess club with the continuation 1.d4 d5 2.c4!.

There are certain openings that I seriously doubt I would ever play though:
Fred Defence (1.e4 f5)
Damiano Defence (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f6)
Latvian Gambit (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5)
Jerome Gambit (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.Bxf7+)
Grob (1.g4)
Omega Gambit (1.d4 Nf6 2.e4)
  
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MartinC
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Re: Openings that you would never play
Reply #45 - 08/09/11 at 08:46:29
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Well thats the thing you know, we're playing for fun and playing the same thing over and over is rather boring Smiley 
(and does also of course have some non trivial objective risks/downsides.).

My main hang up is that I think I'd have to give up chess if I played the French exchange as white....
  
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Re: Openings that you would never play
Reply #44 - 08/08/11 at 23:37:56
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TN wrote on 08/08/11 at 18:39:38:
The list of openings that you would never play is a reflection of the limitations of your playing style and chess culture. 

That said, I would never intentionally play bad moves in a tournament game.


That's true, but I think amateurs are better off just accepting that they won't have the time to master everything. Trying out every serious main line is a recipe for either becoming a strong professional player or total burnout, not something amateur players with normal, fallible memories and other commitments should try.

The more practical approach is to have a fairly narrow repertoire, but know and understand it very well. This should include playing mostly main lines and not be an excuse for sticking with dubious or non-critical lines, which I did for many years unfortunately.

Now I probably play too many different openings compared to what my "philosophy" dictates, but I just can't help myself; I love the variety!
  

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Re: Openings that you would never play
Reply #43 - 08/08/11 at 22:49:06
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/08/11 at 21:56:27:
I'm with TN and BPaulsen. I do have a pretty specific repertoire, but I will leave it from time to time, even in critical games. I consider my opening repertoire to be fairly staid, but I do experiment with openings that don't suck from time to time.


I experiment with openings that do suck, too. At my level, I can get away with that. Tongue
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Openings that you would never play
Reply #42 - 08/08/11 at 21:56:27
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I'm with TN and BPaulsen. I do have a pretty specific repertoire, but I will leave it from time to time, even in critical games. I consider my opening repertoire to be fairly staid, but I do experiment with openings that don't suck from time to time.
  
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Re: Openings that you would never play
Reply #41 - 08/08/11 at 20:48:32
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Jupp53 wrote on 08/08/11 at 17:07:16:
exchanging a center pawn against a wing pawn and making the Nd4 to an object for a lot of black attacking patterns - can this be right???? For me it's too confusing.

You forget that White has the more active pieces. Learning how to use them to good effect is mandatory for chess improvement. So you should play 3.d4 for the same reason as for playing the Open Games.
Now Fromper is right that this applies to the Morra Gambit as well. Like him I scored heavily with it - until I began to meet opponents who knew how to handle it. At that stage proving sufficient compensation against all possible black defences became a lot of work ...
  

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