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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Dutch 2.Nc3 (Read 17106 times)
Arcticmonkey
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Re: Dutch 2.Nc3
Reply #14 - 08/10/11 at 15:04:07
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brabo wrote on 08/09/11 at 05:42:20:
TalJechin wrote on 08/08/11 at 15:15:24:

Personally, I'm warming up to the Bartel lines, as it offer black more active chances. But it's certainly a kind of position one needs to play & analyse a lot to get comfortably in. So, alternating between both set-ups is probably advisable.


I play the Bartel-lines exclusively and I can tell you that they are very risky, maybe even unsound.
1.d4 f5 2.Nc3 d5 3.Bg5 c6 (It has little sense now to play Nf6 if you didn't do it at move 2.) 4.e3 Be6 5.Bd3 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Ngf6 7.0-0 g6 8.Ne2 and I believe Volkov - Bartel shows things aren't easy for black as white can push in c4 without real problems.

1.d4 f5 2.Nc3 d5 3.Bf4 a6 (A subtle move to avoid the possibility 3.. Nf6 4.Nb5 with a small but nagging advantage for white) 4.g4!?N (A very interesting novelty. Classical moves are e3 and Nf3 but then you really get in the active play black wants to achieve. Another interesting pawnsac is e4 but I find it less critical) fxg4 5.h3 Nf6 6.Qd2 c5! (Black needs to play very energetical to avoid standing worse) 7.dxc5 Nc6 8.Bg2 e5 9.Bg5 d4 10.Na4 and in this messy position, I believe both sides have chances.


Mm agreed. Ironically the grandmaster that beat me in this also suggested this move as well when we were analysing our game after it had finished. 

I guess im planning to simply play, 2...Nf6, and that way 3.Bf4 isn't very good anymore since Black will put his pawn on d6 without any worries. 

White is pretty much obliged to go into this variation with 3.Bg5 d5 4.Bxf6 exf6 5.e3 Be6, but using Pallisers and Mcdonalds book + the database, i was able to get the ideas down and create my own repertoire Smiley


  
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brabo
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Re: Dutch 2.Nc3
Reply #13 - 08/10/11 at 05:30:45
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TalJechin wrote on 08/09/11 at 19:52:47:
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3.... c6 is played by Bartel. I can't remember by heart why I didn't like the immediate 3... Be6. Was it because black anyway later has to play Nf6 if you play with Nc6 and come back to the double f-pawn structures as in 2... Nf6 or was it because of ideas based on Ne5/Bb5  or was it something based on g4 or h4 or was it the direct e4?


Sorry my bad, somehow I thought Nf6 was played already.

A decade ago a similar set-up with f5, g6, d5 & c6 was supposed to be best, before the Be6,Qd7,Nc6 set-up took over. Was there a particularly good idea for white vs the g6+d5+c6 that made it disappear or was it just 'fashion' that changed?

As I mentioned earlier the game Volkov- Bartel (Bartel uses the setup of g6+d5+c6) clearly shows black has problems. I am however not 100% sure that it refutes the complete system. Anyway mixing a stonewall with a leningrader doesn't feel good.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Dutch 2.Nc3
Reply #12 - 08/09/11 at 19:52:47
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3.... c6 is played by Bartel. I can't remember by heart why I didn't like the immediate 3... Be6. Was it because black anyway later has to play Nf6 if you play with Nc6 and come back to the double f-pawn structures as in 2... Nf6 or was it because of ideas based on Ne5/Bb5  or was it something based on g4 or h4 or was it the direct e4?


Sorry my bad, somehow I thought Nf6 was played already.

A decade ago a similar set-up with f5, g6, d5 & c6 was supposed to be best, before the Be6,Qd7,Nc6 set-up took over. Was there a particularly good idea for white vs the g6+d5+c6 that made it disappear or was it just 'fashion' that changed?
  
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brabo
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Re: Dutch 2.Nc3
Reply #11 - 08/09/11 at 18:26:57
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Arcticmonkey wrote on 08/08/11 at 14:51:39:

The reason im asking is because i think Mcdonalds line in his book, 'Play the Dutch' with 1.d4 f5 2.Nc3 d5 3.Bg5 h6 4.Bf4 Nf6 5.e3 g5?! 6.Be5 e6 is met strongly with 7.h4! (which he doesnt mention) in which i lost miserably. To be honest, i think the weakening of the kingside is just dubious (and have been told so by two seperate grandmasters) so i decided to change my line to this one which looks much better.

More than 10 years ago, I also played it with 3.. h6. I won 1 OTB game and 1 correspondence game with it but still gave it up as it simply isn't sound. I was convinced of the unsoundness when I found out that 1.d4 f5 2.Nc3 d5 3.Bg5 h6 4.Bh4 g5 5.e3 gxh4 wasn't playable due to 6.Qh5+ Kd7 7.Nf3
  
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brabo
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Re: Dutch 2.Nc3
Reply #10 - 08/09/11 at 18:12:55
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TalJechin wrote on 08/09/11 at 08:18:38:
1.d4 f5 2.Nc3 d5 3.Bf4 a6 [b]4.g4!?N but 4...Nf6 feels like a safe reply to me.

You are right. 4.. Nf6 is a safe alternative to the messy line I've shown. Gxf5 is normally critical but here black has Bxf5 as answer which gives black nice counterplay.
  
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Re: Dutch 2.Nc3
Reply #9 - 08/09/11 at 17:45:41
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bragesjo wrote on 08/09/11 at 08:26:26:
When I played the Dutch I always replied 2 .. d5. I think there was some New in Chess article where black played e6 after Bf4 and as I recall the conclusion was the position was equal.

I believe that 1.d4 f5 2.Nc3 d5 3.Bf4 e6 is probably playable for black but I find it less attractive.
White has a range of interesting possibilities. First you have the classical approaches with e3 and Nf3 which likely transpose to the Bartel-lines.
Next you have 4.Nb5. As black played first e6 instead of Nf6, he now has Bd6 as anti-dote. After 5.Nxd6 white has the bishoppair but it does't mean much as black has a strong grip in the center and the position has a rather static character. However I don't think it will be to everybodies taste to play such position.
Finally white also has 2 interesting pawnsacrifices :g4 and e4 which are here a little bit stronger than in the line with 3... a6. 
1.d4 f5 2.Nc3 d5 3.Bf4 a6 4.g4 fxg4N (I found one amateurgame with Nf6 which was lost by black) 5.h3 g3! 6.Bxg3 (hxg3 is also possible and in both variations it is unclear to me if white can claim any advantage.)
  
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Re: Dutch 2.Nc3
Reply #8 - 08/09/11 at 09:09:39
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TalJechin wrote on 08/09/11 at 08:18:38:


But why "1.d4 f5 2.Nc3 d5 3.Bg5 c6"? I still like the quick development with 3...Be6, ...Qd7 and ...Nc6


3.... c6 is played by Bartel. I can't remember by heart why I didn't like the immediate 3... Be6. Was it because black anyway later has to play Nf6 if you play with Nc6 and come back to the double f-pawn structures as in 2... Nf6 or was it because of ideas based on Ne5/Bb5  or was it something based on g4 or h4 or was it the direct e4?

Quote:

1.d4 f5 2.Nc3 d5 3.Bf4 a6 [b]4.g4!?N has that been played? It looks a lot like the other early g4-gambits, but 4...Nf6 feels like a safe reply to me.

I couldn't find back the move in my databases. In reality the whole variation is still in its childshoes as except Bartel almost nobody from grandmaster level is playing this line. 

Quote:
I play the Bartel-lines exclusively and I can tell you that they are very risky, maybe even unsound.

That sentence doesn't make sense to me though. If I believed a line to be unsound I wouldn't play it, and certainly not exclusively.


Important is the little word maybe. I simply don't get enough opponents whom play the system but my gutfeeling is that something is smelly. The fact that almost no other grandmasters copy Bartels idea strenghtens my suspicions. Anyway I believe more practical tests are needed to come to a final conclusion and I think knowing I've made a lot of analysis of this opening, I have a headstart compared to my OTB opponents.
  
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Re: Dutch 2.Nc3
Reply #7 - 08/09/11 at 08:26:26
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When I played the Dutch I always replied 2 .. d5. I think there was some New in Chess article where black played e6 after Bf4 and as I recall the conclusion was the position was equal.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Dutch 2.Nc3
Reply #6 - 08/09/11 at 08:18:38
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brabo wrote on 08/09/11 at 05:42:20:
TalJechin wrote on 08/08/11 at 15:15:24:

Personally, I'm warming up to the Bartel lines, as it offer black more active chances. But it's certainly a kind of position one needs to play & analyse a lot to get comfortably in. So, alternating between both set-ups is probably advisable.


I play the Bartel-lines exclusively and I can tell you that they are very risky, maybe even unsound.
1.d4 f5 2.Nc3 d5 3.Bg5 c6 (It has little sense now to play Nf6 if you didn't do it at move 2.) 4.e3 Be6 5.Bd3 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Ngf6 7.0-0 g6 8.Ne2 and I believe Volkov - Bartel shows things aren't easy for black as white can push in c4 without real problems.

1.d4 f5 2.Nc3 d5 3.Bf4 a6 (A subtle move to avoid the possibility 3.. Nf6 4.Nb5 with a small but nagging advantage for white) 4.g4!?N (A very interesting novelty. Classical moves are e3 and Nf3 but then you really get in the active play black wants to achieve. Another interesting pawnsac is e4 but I find it less critical) fxg4 5.h3 Nf6 6.Qd2 c5! (Black needs to play very energetical to avoid standing worse) 7.dxc5 Nc6 8.Bg2 e5 9.Bg5 d4 10.Na4 and in this messy position, I believe both sides have chances.


Playing 2...d5 hoping for 3.Bf4 a6 etc but meeting 3.Bg5 with Nf6 doesn't make less sense than playing 2...Nf6 at once.

But why "1.d4 f5 2.Nc3 d5 3.Bg5 c6"? I still like the quick development with 3...Be6, ...Qd7 and ...Nc6

Quote:
1.d4 f5 2.Nc3 d5 3.Bf4 a6 4.g4!?N
has that been played? It looks a lot like the other early g4-gambits, but 4...Nf6 feels like a safe reply to me.


Quote:
I play the Bartel-lines exclusively and I can tell you that they are very risky, maybe even unsound.


That sentence doesn't make sense to me though. If I believed a line to be unsound I wouldn't play it, and certainly not exclusively.
  
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brabo
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Re: Dutch 2.Nc3
Reply #5 - 08/09/11 at 05:42:20
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TalJechin wrote on 08/08/11 at 15:15:24:

Personally, I'm warming up to the Bartel lines, as it offer black more active chances. But it's certainly a kind of position one needs to play & analyse a lot to get comfortably in. So, alternating between both set-ups is probably advisable.


I play the Bartel-lines exclusively and I can tell you that they are very risky, maybe even unsound.
1.d4 f5 2.Nc3 d5 3.Bg5 c6 (It has little sense now to play Nf6 if you didn't do it at move 2.) 4.e3 Be6 5.Bd3 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Ngf6 7.0-0 g6 8.Ne2 and I believe Volkov - Bartel shows things aren't easy for black as white can push in c4 without real problems.

1.d4 f5 2.Nc3 d5 3.Bf4 a6 (A subtle move to avoid the possibility 3.. Nf6 4.Nb5 with a small but nagging advantage for white) 4.g4!?N (A very interesting novelty. Classical moves are e3 and Nf3 but then you really get in the active play black wants to achieve. Another interesting pawnsac is e4 but I find it less critical) fxg4 5.h3 Nf6 6.Qd2 c5! (Black needs to play very energetical to avoid standing worse) 7.dxc5 Nc6 8.Bg2 e5 9.Bg5 d4 10.Na4 and in this messy position, I believe both sides have chances.
  
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Arcticmonkey
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Re: Dutch 2.Nc3
Reply #4 - 08/08/11 at 23:46:02
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Thanks all, i like this forum. 

I think Lilov had a short video for CBM 139 (think it was that one)!? as well.

I'm just curious since the last grandmaster i played, went for this line. And another said he would normally go for it (with 5 games in database - which i prepared from!) but he played 1.c4 on the day. So thats 2/2 grandmasters ive played the Dutch against/was planning to play the dutch against who went/would go for this line. 

Any other answers/relevant games u think would be good to look at would be awesome for anyone else reading this. 

Oh and Tal, IDK. I wish they did it as well.
  
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Re: Dutch 2.Nc3
Reply #3 - 08/08/11 at 17:08:20
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It is also recommended in Beating the Indian Defences, IIRC. It is a quite old book, though, don't remember the lines from it.
  
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Re: Dutch 2.Nc3
Reply #2 - 08/08/11 at 16:40:59
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"play 1. d4" by Palliser recommends the line from white's perspective.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Dutch 2.Nc3
Reply #1 - 08/08/11 at 15:15:24
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Kindermann's book is a good source, I doubt that much has happened in this quiet line since then.

Personally, I'm warming up to the Bartel lines, as it offer black more active chances. But it's certainly a kind of position one needs to play & analyse a lot to get comfortably in. So, alternating between both set-ups is probably advisable.


Btw, what happened to the promised "two free updates within 12 months" of Play the Dutch? Next month it's a year since it was published.

  
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Arcticmonkey
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Dutch 2.Nc3
08/08/11 at 14:51:39
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Hi, i was wondering if i there is anything good that covers this line: 1.d4 f5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bg5 d5 4.Bxf6 exf6 5.e3 Be6 apart from Mcdonalds book, 'Starting Out the Dutch' which is old and a few years ago. 

The reason im asking is because i think Mcdonalds line in his book, 'Play the Dutch' with 1.d4 f5 2.Nc3 d5 3.Bg5 h6 4.Bf4 Nf6 5.e3 g5?! 6.Be5 e6 is met strongly with 7.h4! (which he doesnt mention) in which i lost miserably. To be honest, i think the weakening of the kingside is just dubious (and have been told so by two seperate grandmasters) so i decided to change my line to this one which looks much better.

Are there any yearbook surveys and etc that i should be aware of? 

Thanks in advance for any help.
  
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