ChessPub Forum - C58: New idea in the Two Knights 4.Ng5 and 8.Bd3

Smyslov_Fan YaBB Moderator Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: C58: New idea in the Two Knights 4.Ng5 and 8.Bd3 Reply #11 - 10/10/11 at 12:29:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yeah. Short played 13.Nc3 instead of taking on e5. White ran into trouble fairly quickly as Kasparov gained space and managed to get a passer onto e3 by move 25. It was an impressive display of blitz.


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trw YaBB Moderator Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1414 Joined: 05/06/08 Gender:	Re: C58: New idea in the Two Knights 4.Ng5 and 8.Bd3 Reply #10 - 10/10/11 at 00:40:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	Short just played 8. Bd3 against Kasparov in Blitz. http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1641823


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Antigoon YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 11 Location: Antwerp Joined: 03/03/10 Gender:	Re: C58: New idea in the Two Knights 4.Ng5 and 8.Bd3 Reply #9 - 09/16/11 at 07:47:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	Indeed F22 14...Qh6 in the line given by you is more accurate then Qh4, I'm making note of that one ).


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Re: C58: New idea in the Two Knights 4.Ng5 and 8.Bd3
Reply #8 - 09/15/11 at 09:37:44

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Antigoon wrote on 09/12/11 at 18:05:43:

The line in which I believe to have a strong idea is :

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5+ c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Bd3 Nd5 9.Nf3 Bd6 10.0-0
(Now 10...Nf4 gave black good play for the pawn in Negi, P. - Sargissian, G 2009 it continued : 10. ... Nf4 11. Re1 Nxd3 12. cxd3 O-O 13. Nxe5 Re8 14. d4 c5
15. d3 cxd4 16. Nf3 Rxe1+ 17. Qxe1 Bf5 and although white went on to win black's position was more then ok here)

10...0-0 11.Re1 and here black always continued with Re8 or Qc7 but I propose to offer a second pawn with 11.... f5

12. Ne5 (white has to except after the inferior 12.Rxe5 Bxe5 13.Nxe5 Re8 14.Nf3 c5 white may have 2 pawns for the exchange but black is active and white needs a lot of time to develop his queenside.) 12...Qf6 13. white now has 2 retreats --> 13.Nf3 g5 14.c3 (the only move since 14.g3 f4 only helps black and 14.c4 Nb4 15.Bf1 g4 wins a piece)
14...g4 15.Nd4 Qh6 16.g3 Nf4 17.Bf1 Nh3+ 18.Bxh3 Qxh3 19.Ne6 (on 19.Re3 Nc4 seems pretty strong and 19.f4 gxf3 followed by f4 leads to a good attack) 19...Rf6 20.Ng5 Qh5 and here white has several moves 21.b4-d3-d4 and h4 but on all of them I beleive black keeps a promising position after 21...h6. although the engines claim the position to be about equal.

The other retreat on move 13.Nc4 Nxc4 14.Bxc4 Qh4 15.Bxd5+ cxd5 and here there are two moves on 16.g3 the queen retreats to f6 and with f4 to follow I do not trust this position for white and probably better 16.h3 Qf4 17.g3 Qg5 and black will also get f4 in with good attacking chances.

Although engines claim the position can be held by white this definitely convinced me never to try 8.Bd3 in tournament play.

Any comments, corrections and feedback is much appreciated.

Stefan.

It would be easier to respond if you arranged your text in a more coherent way.

OK as far as I understood the idea is: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5+ c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Bd3 Nd5 9. Nf3 Bd6 10. O-O O-O 11. Re1 f5!? 12. Nxe5! Qf6 13. Nc4 13. Nf3 is your other main line 13. ... Nxc4 14. Bxc4 Qh6! this is my slight improvement 15. g3? given what happens after this 15. h3 is better but that transposes to your own lines after 15. ... Qf4 15. ... f4! White has problems 16. d4 Qg6 17. Bd3 Bf5

Black wants to take 3 times on g3: fxg3-Bxg3-Qxg3. 18. Bxf5 White can't do without this exchange another line is: 18. Re2 Qh5 19. Bxf5 Rxf5 arriving at the same position with the Queen at h5 instead of g6 18. ... Rxf5! 19. Re2 fxg3 20. fxg3 Raf8.

And from here it seems to be a matter of technique.

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PatzerNoster Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 152 Joined: 10/22/09	Re: C58: New idea in the Two Knights 4.Ng5 and 8.Bd3 Reply #7 - 09/14/11 at 23:43:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	There is a remarkable new idea 8.Bd3 Nd5 9.h4!? which scores very well in the few games where it was played and may give black greater problems than 9.Nf3.


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trw YaBB Moderator Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1414 Joined: 05/06/08 Gender:	Re: C58: New idea in the Two Knights 4.Ng5 and 8.Bd3 Reply #6 - 09/14/11 at 16:40:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	Interesting idea, wish I had time to explore it now. But for consistency's sake, I will link to the last time we discussed 8. Bd3 http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1301056796


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ghenghisclown God Member Offline Pedicare Vestri Latin Posts: 1022 Location: HollyWeird Joined: 07/19/06 Gender:	Re: C58: New idea in the Two Knights 4.Ng5 and 8.Bd3 Reply #5 - 09/14/11 at 00:12:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	I remember reading an article (Chessbase?) describing Gusti's loss to Huschenbeth, the writer mentions that GM's consider Bd3 as perhaps leaving Black without sufficient compensation - hence the importance of making 3...Bc5 work. This is the point of the current discussion, NOT Qf3...which I don' think is regarded as critical.

	"Experience is a dim lamp, which only lights the one who bears it."
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Master Om Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 187 Joined: 02/20/10	Re: C58: New idea in the Two Knights 4.Ng5 and 8.Bd3 Reply #4 - 09/13/11 at 01:43:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	Antigoon wrote on 09/12/11 at 18:05:43: The line in which I believe to have a strong idea is : 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5+ c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Bd3 Nd5 9.Nf3 Bd6 10.0-0 (Now 10...Nf4 gave black good play for the pawn in Negi, P. - Sargissian, G 2009 it continued : 10. ... Nf4 11. Re1 Nxd3 12. cxd3 O-O 13. Nxe5 Re8 14. d4 c5 15. d3 cxd4 16. Nf3 Rxe1+ 17. Qxe1 Bf5 and although white went on to win black's position was more then ok here) 10...0-0 11.Re1 and here black always continued with Re8 or Qc7 but I propose to offer a second pawn with 11.... f5 12. Ne5 (white has to except after the inferior 12.Rxe5 Bxe5 13.Nxe5 Re8 14.Nf3 c5 white may have 2 pawns for the exchange but black is active and white needs a lot of time to develop his queenside.) 12...Qf6 13. white now has 2 retreats --> 13.Nf3 g5 14.c3 (the only move since 14.g3 f4 only helps black and 14.c4 Nb4 15.Bf1 g4 wins a piece) 14...g4 15.Nd4 Qh6 16.g3 Nf4 17.Bf1 Nh3+ 18.Bxh3 Qxh3 19.Ne6 (on 19.Re3 Nc4 seems pretty strong and 19.f4 gxf3 followed by f4 leads to a good attack) 19...Rf6 20.Ng5 Qh5 and here white has several moves 21.b4-d3-d4 and h4 but on all of them I beleive black keeps a promising position after 21...h6. although the engines claim the position to be about equal. The other retreat on move 13.Nc4 Nxc4 14.Bxc4 Qh4 15.Bxd5+ cxd5 and here there are two moves on 16.g3 the queen retreats to f6 and with f4 to follow I do not trust this position for white and probably better 16.h3 Qf4 17.g3 Qg5 and black will also get f4 in with good attacking chances. Although engines claim the position can be held by white this definitely convinced me never to try 8.Bd3 in tournament play. Any comments, corrections and feedback is much appreciated. Stefan. Your line although seems viable, Its better to sac the queen in most lines for compensation. Here is a Testing Game of mine. [Event "Test-01"] [Site "Attila"] [Date "2011.09.02"] [Round "1"] [White "Vitruvius-079b-w64"] [Black "Houdini_15a_x64"] [Result "1-0"] [ECO "C58"] [WhiteElo "3000"] [BlackElo "3000"] [PlyCount "118"] [EventDate "2011.??.??"] [TimeControl "180+3"] 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5+ c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Qf3 Be7 9. Nc3 Bg4 10. Bxc6+ Kf8 11. Bxa8 Bxf3 12. Bxf3 h6 13. Nge4 Nc6 14. Nxf6 Nd4 15. Nfd5 Nxc2+ 16. Kd1 Nxa1 17. b4 Qb8 18. b5 Bc5 19. Bb2 g6 20. Nf6 Qd8 21. Ng4 Bd4 22. Bxa1 e4 23. Be2 f5 24. Ne3 Rh7 25. Kc1 h5 26. g3 h4 27. Rf1 Qc7 28. Kc2 Qd7 29. Bc4 Rh8 30. Bb2 Kg7 31. Kb3 Be5 32. Ned5 hxg3 33. hxg3 Rh2 34. d3 e3 35. fxe3 Qc8 36. Nf4 Kh7 37. a3 Qb7 38. d4 Bxf4 39. gxf4 Qe7 40. Rf3 Qh4 41. d5 Qe1 42. a4 Qd2 43. Ba3 Kg7 44. a5 Qc2+ 45. Kb4 Rh1 46. Rf1 Rxf1 47. Bxf1 Qd2 48. b6 Qxe3 49. Kb3 axb6 50. a6 Qe8 51. d6 g5 52. fxg5 f4 53. Bc4 Qd7 54. Nb5 Qh3+ 55. Kb4 Qf5 56. a7 Qb1+ 57. Kc3 Qe1+ 58. Kc2 Qe4+ 59. Kb3 Kg6 1-0

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ghenghisclown God Member Offline Pedicare Vestri Latin Posts: 1022 Location: HollyWeird Joined: 07/19/06 Gender:	Re: C58: New idea in the Two Knights 4.Ng5 and 8.Bd3 Reply #3 - 09/12/11 at 22:44:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	Your idea seems fully playable and interesting...

	"Experience is a dim lamp, which only lights the one who bears it."
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Antigoon YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 11 Location: Antwerp Joined: 03/03/10 Gender:	Re: C58: New idea in the Two Knights 4.Ng5 and 8.Bd3 Reply #2 - 09/12/11 at 19:06:35	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thanks for the response but I am aware of this game and consider the continuation of Sargissian of 14...c5 to be superior and give black adequate play. Any thoughts on my variation with 11...f5 ?


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Smyslov_Fan YaBB Moderator Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: C58: New idea in the Two Knights 4.Ng5 and 8.Bd3 Reply #1 - 09/12/11 at 18:39:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	You may want to peruse McShane-Gupta: [Event "MP Reykjavik Open 2011"] [Site "Reykjavik City Hall"] [Date "2011.03.12"] [Round "5.2"] [White "McShane, Luke J"] [Black "Gupta, Abhijeet"] [Result "1-0"] [ECO "C58"] [WhiteElo "2683"] [BlackElo "2580"] [PlyCount "143"] [EventDate "2011.03.09"] 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5+ c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Bd3 Nd5 9. Nf3 Bd6 10. O-O Nf4 11. Re1 Nxd3 12. cxd3 O-O 13. Nxe5 Re8 14. d4 f6 15. Nf3 Bg4 16. Rf1 Re4 17. h3 Bh5 18. Nc3 Rxd4 19. Re1 Qd7 20. Qe2 Nc4 21. b3 Bxf3 22. Qxf3 Ne5 23. Qe2 f5 24. Ba3 Bc7 25. Rad1 Re8 26. Kh1 Rd8 27. Bc5 Rd3 28. Be3 Ng6 29. Bg5 Rc8 30. Qe6+ Qxe6 31. Rxe6 Bb6 32. Re2 f4 33. Re4 Rf8 34. f3 Bc5 35. Ne2 Bd6 36. h4 h6 37. h5 Rd5 38. hxg6 Rxg5 39. Re6 Rd8 40. Kg1 Ra5 41. Nc3 Bb4 42. Rde1 Rxd2 43. Rxc6 Rd8 44. Re2 Bc5+ 45. Kf1 Be3 46. g4 h5 47. Kg2 Kf8 48. Kh3 Ke7 49. Kh4 Kd7 50. Rc4 hxg4 51. Kxg4 Ra6 52. Nd5 Rf8 53. Rc7+ Kd6 54. Rf7 Kxd5 55. Rxf8 Rxg6+ 56. Kf5 Rg1 57. Rd8+ Kc5 58. Rc2+ Kb4 59. Rb8+ Ka3 60. Rbc8 g6+ 61. Ke4 Rg5 62. R8c4 Ra5 63. Rg2 Ra6 64. Kd3 Ra5 65. Kc3 Bc1 66. Rg5 Ra6 67. Rxg6 Ra5 68. Kc2 Be3 69. Rg5 Ra6 70. Rg6 Ra5 71. Re6 Kxa2 72. Ree4 1-0 Download game in pgn format White can probably improve on 16.Rf1 with, say, 16.d3. This type of position is a bit irrational. I'm not sure I'd choose it in a correspondence game, but White does seem to get a practical edge.


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Antigoon YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 11 Location: Antwerp Joined: 03/03/10 Gender:	C58: New idea in the Two Knights 4.Ng5 and 8.Bd3 09/12/11 at 18:05:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	The line in which I believe to have a strong idea is : 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5+ c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Bd3 Nd5 9.Nf3 Bd6 10.0-0 (Now 10...Nf4 gave black good play for the pawn in Negi, P. - Sargissian, G 2009 it continued : 10. ... Nf4 11. Re1 Nxd3 12. cxd3 O-O 13. Nxe5 Re8 14. d4 c5 15. d3 cxd4 16. Nf3 Rxe1+ 17. Qxe1 Bf5 and although white went on to win black's position was more then ok here) 10...0-0 11.Re1 and here black always continued with Re8 or Qc7 but I propose to offer a second pawn with 11.... f5 12. Ne5 (white has to except after the inferior 12.Rxe5 Bxe5 13.Nxe5 Re8 14.Nf3 c5 white may have 2 pawns for the exchange but black is active and white needs a lot of time to develop his queenside.) 12...Qf6 13. white now has 2 retreats --> 13.Nf3 g5 14.c3 (the only move since 14.g3 f4 only helps black and 14.c4 Nb4 15.Bf1 g4 wins a piece) 14...g4 15.Nd4 Qh6 16.g3 Nf4 17.Bf1 Nh3+ 18.Bxh3 Qxh3 19.Ne6 (on 19.Re3 Nc4 seems pretty strong and 19.f4 gxf3 followed by f4 leads to a good attack) 19...Rf6 20.Ng5 Qh5 and here white has several moves 21.b4-d3-d4 and h4 but on all of them I beleive black keeps a promising position after 21...h6. although the engines claim the position to be about equal. The other retreat on move 13.Nc4 Nxc4 14.Bxc4 Qh4 15.Bxd5+ cxd5 and here there are two moves on 16.g3 the queen retreats to f6 and with f4 to follow I do not trust this position for white and probably better 16.h3 Qf4 17.g3 Qg5 and black will also get f4 in with good attacking chances. Although engines claim the position can be held by white this definitely convinced me never to try 8.Bd3 in tournament play. Any comments, corrections and feedback is much appreciated. Stefan.


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