Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Unlearning (Read 5260 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Unlearning
Reply #12 - 10/09/11 at 22:28:23
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The single piece of "unlearning" that comes most readily to my mind is "knights on the rim are dim/grim". Strong players know of so many exceptions to that rule that the rule itself needs to be reconsidered. While the saying is still useful as a teaching tool, the coach of experienced players should be challenging their pupils with exceptions to such rules regularly.

Another very basic lesson that I had to unlearn was that a Rook is worth 5 pawns and a Bishop is worth three pawns. In many cases, a B+P is equal to a Rook, and a B+2 connected pawns is often even stronger than a rook.
  
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MartinC
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Re: Unlearning
Reply #11 - 10/09/11 at 08:51:01
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Bishop pairs actually one of the few things which can be (sort of) quantified and does actually sort of hold up. Watson did that in Secrets of modern chess strategy with some database stats - pure endings go heavily (roughly 2:1) in favour of the bishops vs N&N or N&B. 
(Lots of very interesting discussion/examples in that book and its successor too of course.)

A bit less noted once you add more pieces in but present, probably partially because of the effects of potential endings!

Of course plenty of openings/positions where you concede them early enough to do something about it/get something to compensate for them Smiley But they're unarguably a good thing in general.
  
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fling
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Re: Unlearning
Reply #10 - 10/09/11 at 08:30:47
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Katalyst wrote on 10/09/11 at 02:01:53:
I think one thing classical training did leave me with was a reluctance to play f4/...f5 when necessary.


This subject, to play or not to play f4/...f5 I find is similar to the bishop vs knight. There are concrete examples of when it works or even is needed and also when the moves are just weakening.
  
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Katalyst
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Re: Unlearning
Reply #9 - 10/09/11 at 02:01:53
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I suppose the two bishops are generally a temporary advantage, that can't usually be maintained for a long time but can be used to gain concessions from the opponent who wants to get rid of them.  In certain positions the knight pair can be lethal as well.

I think one thing classical training did leave me with was a reluctance to play f4/...f5 when necessary.
  
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chk
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Re: Unlearning
Reply #8 - 10/07/11 at 09:13:42
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Yes but I had the misconception that this rule of thumb was applying to far more cases than I believe now..
  

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Uhohspaghettio
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Re: Unlearning
Reply #7 - 10/07/11 at 03:06:56
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chk wrote on 10/05/11 at 13:06:27:
My greatest misconception has always been Bishop pair > B+N or 2Ns.


It's not really a misconception, it's a useful rule-of-thumb.
  
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chk
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Re: Unlearning
Reply #6 - 10/05/11 at 13:06:27
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My greatest misconception has always been Bishop pair > B+N or 2Ns.

I am just about to finish Timman's book Power Chess with Pieces which deals particularly with such duels between different teams of minor pieces. It has been very useful in order to understand when to put < or = or > in the above equation!
  

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Re: Unlearning
Reply #5 - 10/05/11 at 11:04:06
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To me it seems it hasnt much to do with unlearning, but more that you come to notice that certain rules are special cases of broader rules. Same way that Newrtonian mechanics is a special case (same way that castling quickly is a special case of keep your king safe). 

However most rules are still applicable in 90% of the cases, it is just that in a certain position they may conflict or less important than other elements. Plus rules shouldnt prevent you from thinking, otherwise one should play checkers or apply for a job in government.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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fling
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Re: Unlearning
Reply #4 - 10/05/11 at 09:58:09
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Katalyst wrote on 10/05/11 at 02:25:26:

It's ironic, I've also been working through James Vigus's "Play the Slav", and from what I've seen, the English, a less mainstream opening than the Slav, has far more 'natural' moves than the Slav book, where I'm constantly asking 'why on earth this?' or 'why not that?'.  It would be interesting to figure out how much of this tendency is due to the style of the authors' play and how much is due to the style and theory of the opening itself.



I have been trying to work on different aspects of chess the last year. My impressions regarding the "weird" moves has been that these seem strange often only because I haven't looked at the alternatives. The reason e.g. g4 is played is many times to fight for the centre, rather than start a direct kingside attack (or both). I think this has been discussed at in some books, Watson is the first author I come to think of.

What I'm trying to say is that these moves are often an evolution of ideas. Many moves are prophylactic and seem non-natural because they don't really threaten anything immediately.

Regarding this case of the Slav vs English, I would think this is more of a style of the authors rather than the theory. There are many different ways to play both these openings.
  
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Katalyst
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Re: Unlearning
Reply #3 - 10/05/11 at 02:25:26
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Great posts, thanks.  You are right about the GM games, some of them appear crazy compared with the classical views.  Too sharp for me generally, I like to be active of course but prefer to attack from a solid position.

The Silman book sounds interesting as well.  I've just taken up 1. c4 and am working through Tony Kosten's 'Dynamic English' and am really enjoying the positions I'm getting.  

It's ironic, I've also been working through James Vigus's "Play the Slav", and from what I've seen, the English, a less mainstream opening than the Slav, has far more 'natural' moves than the Slav book, where I'm constantly asking 'why on earth this?' or 'why not that?'.  It would be interesting to figure out how much of this tendency is due to the style of the authors' play and how much is due to the style and theory of the opening itself.

  
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Stigma
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Re: Unlearning
Reply #2 - 10/04/11 at 23:08:55
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P.S.

It occured to me that just the "beginner" rules you mention (knights before bishops, don't move the same piece twice, etc.) are well dealt with in Silman's book "Reassess Your Chess". Instead of fixed rules, Silman teaches his readers to look for moves and plans that create an imbalance on the board (like knight against bishop, or the bishop pair with doubled pawns), and then play the position in accordance with that imbalance. So for example, when people go to great lengths to preserve a bishop, that's usually because the bishop pair is often a powerful and long-term imbalance.

When you start thinking that way, the old beginner rules become special cases that relate to certain imbalances (mostly development and king safety) but you'll realize when other imbalances are more important in a position.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Stigma
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Re: Unlearning
Reply #1 - 10/04/11 at 22:43:36
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Probably anyone on any level has misconceptions that should be unlearned to progress further.

I've thought of one obvious way to do this that should also be pretty time-efficient: Play through lots of high-level games quickly while trying briefly to guess the next move or list the obvious candidate moves before looking. Whenever a move looks completely surprising/unnatural to you, you mark that position and store the game in a database (and maybe check the position with a strong engine to make sure the surprising move isn't simply bad). 

After a while you will have a personalized database of good moves that don't fit your current chess concepts! Then you can look for patterns, maybe organizing the moves by type just like you say (ridiculous lengths to preserve a bishop, exchanging a good bishop to double pawns, etc.). Simply repeating these "new" concepts occasionally should help to be more aware of them during games. Or you can go further and look for good training material on those concepts in advanced books.

In recent GM practice I've seen some concepts I could usefully unlearn: Lots of games where people play with king positions that look very shaky to me, either staying in the centre or advancing pawns in front of the castled king. Probably as long as they keep the initiative and are sure of their calculation skills, modern GMs get away with this more often than in earlier times. (Study material for this concept: Agaard; Practical Chess Defence.) I also often see GMs successfully defend positions with a bad bishop against a knight or a good bishop, even with no other minor pieces on the board, that look absolutely dreadful to me. So I should get better at recognizing when a bad bishop isn't the end of the world, and maybe in general which positions to evaluate as "worse but defensible".

Btw, I don't agree that unlearning should be easier than learning! We chess players, like everyone else, grow very attached to and comfortable with the things we "know", and it can take a long time to change well set intuitions.

Quote:
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.  - Mark Twain

Wink
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Katalyst
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Unlearning
10/04/11 at 21:42:56
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In Amatzia Avni's book 'Devious Chess', he mentions  Emanuel Lasker stating that "it took him many years to forget what he had been taught about chess as a youngster", and that unlearning had made him stronger.

Having started playing chess at a young age, this made me wonder if I should try to do any unlearning (I expect I'll find this much easier than learning).  No doubt there are a lot of principles from beginning chess books that lose value as you learn the game, and could possibly become bad habits.

It occurs to me that I see quite a few examples in internet games of, for example, going to ridiculous lengths to prevent a bishop being exchanged for a knight, giving up good bishops to double pawns etc.

I guess there are quite a few that relate to openings, moving the same piece twice, knights before bishops and so on.  I've noticed that in opening theory there are a lot of cases where castling is deferred for a long time as well, against the advice of the textbooks.   

Can anyone else think of any other examples of early training that should be unlearned?
  
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