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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Dutch Bf4 vs Everything Anti-Dutch? (Read 32955 times)
Sisyphus
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Re: Dutch Bf4 vs Everything Anti-Dutch?
Reply #25 - 07/06/14 at 11:09:31
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This variation is given by Rudel in his "Zuka" book (includes the "Dangerfield attack") and looks indeed difficult to play for Black.
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brabo
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Re: Dutch Bf4 vs Everything Anti-Dutch?
Reply #24 - 03/18/14 at 15:43:38
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I used this thread in my latest article. Any comments here or on my blog are welcome.
http://chess-brabo.blogspot.be/2014/03/theory.html
  
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MartinC
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Re: Dutch Bf4 vs Everything Anti-Dutch?
Reply #23 - 01/26/14 at 15:00:19
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Such a dull position they got out of it too Wink Rare to see the computer evaluations jumping around quite as much as they've been doing.

The f4 bishop has been doing up some fine work on g3/h4 propping up whites kingside.

Ah, oooopppps. Can't blame the opening for that time trouble accident Smiley
  
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Re: Dutch Bf4 vs Everything Anti-Dutch?
Reply #22 - 01/26/14 at 11:39:31
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Aronian playing 1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bf4 right now at Tata Steel
  
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Re: Dutch Bf4 vs Everything Anti-Dutch?
Reply #21 - 01/24/14 at 16:21:01
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As a Classical Dutch player who usually plays e6 before f5 to avoid the anti-Dutch lines (and very rarely transpose to the French, which I'm just as happy playing), would Rudel's "Dangerfield Attack" book be worth checking out? I've actually had trouble against London System players hitting me with this type of thing in the past, so I was thinking of picking this up just to skim it for black suggestions.
  

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Re: Dutch Bf4 vs Everything Anti-Dutch?
Reply #20 - 11/11/13 at 15:56:07
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ChevyBanginStyle wrote on 11/11/13 at 03:57:56:
[quote author=17203B31263A37003736520 link=1320337102/12#12 date=1383845394]
My memory was a little faulty. Actually he recommends delaying Qf3 with 5.Nc3 first, but the idea is the same.


Playing Qf3 is quite a nice piece of mayhem, because you threaten Qg3 to hit both c7 and g6. Computer engines think there's an advantage to white, but not a decisive one. 

I play in the same team as one of the players mentioned, he plays openings to get a decent position rather than employ or meet red hot theory. If anyone had told him about 6. Qf3, he might have given it a punt. So 2. Bf4 can have the same motives as 2. Bg5 with the advantage that you don't need to know anything about the lines where they trap your piece. 1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 h6 3. Bh4 g5 4. Bg3 f4 or even 4. e4 or 4. e3
  
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ChevyBanginStyle
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Re: Dutch Bf4 vs Everything Anti-Dutch?
Reply #19 - 11/11/13 at 03:57:56
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ErictheRed wrote on 11/07/13 at 17:29:54:
Now I really want to know what the one-move refutation of 1.d4 f5 2.Bf4 Nf6 3.e3 g6 4.h4 h6 is!  I feel like such a patzer for not being able to figure it out.  
 


I found a pdf on Chesscafe where Rudel analyzes this position in more detail:

http://www.chesscafe.com/text/skittles434.pdf

My memory was a little faulty. Actually he recommends delaying Qf3 with 5.Nc3 first, but the idea is the same.

Incidentally, the main line ends with about a +/= assessment, so the claim of "refutation" seems to be a bit of an intentional exaggeration.

Anyway, I would much rather take White, so it is a little bizarre to me why favorable lines within a rare sideline like this are such a sticking point. +/= for White, oh noes, major fail! Worst book EVARRR!! Angry
  
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Re: Dutch Bf4 vs Everything Anti-Dutch?
Reply #18 - 11/11/13 at 03:32:39
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Found this in the comments of the Chesscafe blog in response to the review of Rudel's book on the 2.Bf4 Dutch:

http://blog.chesscafe.com/?p=1954#comments

Chris Wainscott in defense of his review:

"Lastly, I’d like to address the comment about concrete lines of analysis to refute the author’s lines. I don’t have any. But no offense, I shouldn’t have to have them. The point of an opening book in my opinion should be to give clear and concise ideas and lines of play based on best play by both sides. It shouldn’t be some stuff that has never been played on a high level that is cobbled together and then sold to the public as though it is a well thought out and extremely playable system."

Well that cleared up everything for me.

Unrelated to the Dutch, but a nice game nonetheless:

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1705075
  
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Re: Dutch Bf4 vs Everything Anti-Dutch?
Reply #17 - 11/07/13 at 19:26:57
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ErictheRed wrote on 11/07/13 at 17:29:54:

Personally, I'd prefer a queenside fianchetto in these lines, just letting the Bishop sit on f4.  I don't think it's a very good square for it, whether or not Black manages to hit it with ...e5.


I notice that a couple of old-timey books (NCO and ECO) had as their main line Black playing like that (2...Nf6 followed by ...e6 and ...b6).
  
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Re: Dutch Bf4 vs Everything Anti-Dutch?
Reply #16 - 11/07/13 at 18:59:21
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tp2205 wrote on 11/07/13 at 18:36:06:
[quote author=596E757F6874794E79781C0 link=1320337102/12#12 date=1383845394]White saves one move compared to 1. d4 f5 2.Bg5 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4.h4 h6 5. Bf4 Nf6 6.e3


There's a thought. If you are partial to the general mayhem that can be generated from 1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 and you know your opponent is a Leningrad player, perhaps trying to move order him with 2. Bf4 is worth a try.

Whilst it's obvious enough that a player using the Colle needs to have something against the Dutch, I've never really understood the point of playing the Colle if in order to get a reasonable position you need to know lots of strange sub variations. Why not just have the equivalent knowledge of long-standing main lines and get a good position in most of them?

There's every point in playing 2. Bf4 for trying to hack up the Dutch, but a prejudice against Colle players is that they are just interested in having a mechanical system of development, which 1.d4 f5 2. Bf4 doesn't really sit with.

The Colle system can be used as a means of transposing into a favourable line or even just a line of something else. To make that work, you have to have a wide theory knowledge, negating the "don't need to know theory" advocacy of the Colle. 
  
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Re: Dutch Bf4 vs Everything Anti-Dutch?
Reply #15 - 11/07/13 at 18:36:06
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ErictheRed wrote on 11/07/13 at 17:29:54:
Now I really want to know what the one-move refutation of 1.d4 f5 2.Bf4 Nf6 3.e3 g6 4.h4 h6 is!  I feel like such a patzer for not being able to figure it out.  

Personally, I'd prefer a queenside fianchetto in these lines, just letting the Bishop sit on f4.  I don't think it's a very good square for it, whether or not Black manages to hit it with ...e5.  But I guess just about every Black setup is playable, besides the Stonewall. 


Not a one move refutation but that position cannot be bad for White since White saves one move compared to 1. d4 f5 2.Bg5 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4.h4 h6 5. Bf4 Nf6 6.e3 which is one of Schandorff's recommendation against the Dutch while the Black set-up was recommended by Kindermann.

But against Bf4 d6 looks certainly like the most natural reaction, postponing the decision on what to do with Bf8, or at the very least delaying g6 for a bit.
  
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Re: Dutch Bf4 vs Everything Anti-Dutch?
Reply #14 - 11/07/13 at 18:29:41
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ErictheRed wrote on 11/07/13 at 17:29:54:
Now I really want to know what the one-move refutation of 1.d4 f5 2.Bf4 Nf6 3.e3 g6 4.h4 h6 is!  I feel like such a patzer for not being able to figure it out.  

Personally, I'd prefer a queenside fianchetto in these lines, just letting the Bishop sit on f4.  I don't think it's a very good square for it, whether or not Black manages to hit it with ...e5.  But I guess just about every Black setup is playable, besides the Stonewall. 


I think he was making a case for 5.Qf3 with the threat of Qg3 targeting c7 and g6. Maybe you think "refutation" is too strong a word, but I wouldn't want to be Black.

The recent review on chesscafe is completely inept. If you're going to try to trash a book with Houdini, put a little more effort than "Houdini says +.38, so Black is just fine. Checkmate, Rudel!" (These are not the actual words, but the tone of the review is not too far off.) Really, this line was the biggest "slam" with any concrete justification I could find. In the final diagram, I don't think the idea of Nf4 (with a possible threat of Ng5) after Be5 is too hard to find. Really strange examples...

Of course, if your chess objections don't hold any water, you can always attack the rating of the author. This has even more credibility the lower rated you are yourself.

"Dismantling the Dismantler" is the actual title of the review: what a joke!

Some of the book reviews on chesscafe are absolutely terrible. Maybe this reviewer is attempting to impress us with his understanding of chess or trying to sound clever. I don't know.
  
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Re: Dutch Bf4 vs Everything Anti-Dutch?
Reply #13 - 11/07/13 at 18:12:56
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Yes, one move seems hard Smiley h5 ^ g5 Be5(Bg3 maybe) etc does leave black looking quite extended to me though, so there's definitely some point to whites play then. Which I guess all you're looking for.

Logical too - if 3.. g6 4 h4 is dangerous after white goes d4,c4, Nc3 then it shouldn't be trivial to deal with here either.

Fianchettoing the other bishop does look exceedingly sane. Or a classical set up (but why restrict the c8 bishop?). 

Or even just a more cunning Leningrad move order. Go 3.. d6 first and challenge white to find a half decent waiting move that leaves h4,h5 on as an idea. He might have a few options mind.
  
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Re: Dutch Bf4 vs Everything Anti-Dutch?
Reply #12 - 11/07/13 at 17:29:54
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Now I really want to know what the one-move refutation of 1.d4 f5 2.Bf4 Nf6 3.e3 g6 4.h4 h6 is!  I feel like such a patzer for not being able to figure it out.   

Personally, I'd prefer a queenside fianchetto in these lines, just letting the Bishop sit on f4.  I don't think it's a very good square for it, whether or not Black manages to hit it with ...e5.  But I guess just about every Black setup is playable, besides the Stonewall.
  
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Re: Dutch Bf4 vs Everything Anti-Dutch?
Reply #11 - 11/07/13 at 10:08:14
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I also thought it's a very strange review. The reviewer is rated 1649 apparently...
  
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