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Poll Question: Should mutually agreed draws be banned?



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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) No draw offers before move 40 (Read 58324 times)
TalJechin
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Re: No draw offers before move 40
Reply #17 - 11/23/11 at 11:32:00
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[quote author=6B5D7A390 link=1321642542/16#16 date=1322047121][quote author=7B4E43654A4C4746412F0 link=1321642542/14#14 date=1322044153][- in what other game/sport can you be leading and then propose a draw to minimise your effort? 
[/quote]

Match play golf is probably one since individual holes can be conceded or agreed level without playing out each hole to the final putt. 

Backgammon with the doubling cube is perhaps another. Folding of poker hands is a third.
Cricket matches agreed drawn with half an hours play remaining is a fourth.

All examples where a game or match isn't played out to the bitter end when the most likely outcome is obvious to both players and to continue is just boring to both participants and spectators.
[/quote]

Those are examples of giving up [b]or[/b] agreeing a draw. Resigning, folding etc is not the issue. 

Would any of your examples involve [b]agreeing a draw when one side has the advantage?[/b]
  
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RdC
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Re: No draw offers before move 40
Reply #16 - 11/23/11 at 11:18:41
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[quote author=7B4E43654A4C4746412F0 link=1321642542/14#14 date=1322044153][- in what other game/sport can you be leading and then propose a draw to minimise your effort? 
[/quote]

Match play golf is probably one since individual holes can be conceded or agreed level without playing out each hole to the final putt. 

Backgammon with the doubling cube is perhaps another. Folding of poker hands is a third.
Cricket matches agreed drawn with half an hours play remaining is a fourth.

All examples where a game or match isn't played out to the bitter end when the most likely outcome is obvious to both players and to continue is just boring to both participants and spectators.


  
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SWJediknight
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Re: No draw offers before move 40
Reply #15 - 11/23/11 at 11:17:20
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I've seen some analysis of this over at the "Chess Monthly" magazine.  Whether you think the tendency to "play it safe" and head for the draw is a problem or not, I don't think this rule is likely to help matters because it may just lead to players shuffling their pieces around until move 40 or playing threefold repetitions- though I take the point that the latter scenario may make the games easier for audiences to understand.

The only suggestion in Chess Monthly that I found interesting was the one about deferring draw offers for a move (i.e. you offer a draw, then a couple of moves are played by both sides, then the opponent decides whether to accept or not).  The problem with this is that it may be confusing for newcomers to chess, but it might be worth looking into at the highest levels.

Ultimately the main problem is that at the highest levels people are playing chess for a living (thus the result is far more important than the means of getting there) and in games between players of equal ability, at a level where defences are very good, it is often very hard to break down the opponent's defence without taking serious risks, thus leading to a lot of draws.  The same issue arises at the highest levels of football, e.g. the large number of "bore draws" at the latest World Cup.  The rise of "professionalism" and the dominance of money over entertainment are significant factors in many sporting competitions, not just top-level chess.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: No draw offers before move 40
Reply #14 - 11/23/11 at 10:29:13
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[quote author=6C52464C53504960795E513F0 link=1321642542/10#10 date=1321982121]The current Tal Memorial has the rule that no draw offer may be made before move 40. The rule is not affecting the number of decisive games at all.

This rule doesn't achieve the goal of creating more decisive games, and it forces players to play out three-fold repetitions as if they couldn't see what was going on. 

It's just a bad rule.[/quote]

Those poor GMs being forced to play out a three-fold repetition to get a draw... What horror! :))

Maybe the goal isn't to create decisive games but make the participants play to the logical end so the audience would understand the result?

Especially in the knock-out formats it's not a bad idea to remove the option of agreeing a draw - in what other game/sport can you be leading and then propose a draw to minimise your effort? 

Imagine Barca-Real, last game of the season - Barca is 3-0 up after 25 minutes and offers a draw since that would clinch the title, and Real accepts since 6-0 seems more likely than the proposed 3-3...
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: No draw offers before move 40
Reply #13 - 11/22/11 at 23:53:47
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That's a bit challenging, Willempie, with only 5 games played per round.  Lips Sealed

(I have a feeling you knew that though.) 
  
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Willempie
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Re: No draw offers before move 40
Reply #12 - 11/22/11 at 22:10:36
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 11/22/11 at 17:15:21:
The current Tal Memorial has the rule that no draw offer may be made before move 40. The rule is not affecting the number of decisive games at all.

This rule doesn't achieve the goal of creating more decisive games, and it forces players to play out three-fold repetitions as if they couldn't see what was going on. 

It's just a bad rule.

You must have misunderstood. At the Tal memorial 6 draws per round is mandatory.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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ErictheRed
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Re: No draw offers before move 40
Reply #11 - 11/22/11 at 21:48:53
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I'm in the minority but I don't really see anything wrong with the rule.  Of course it's based on a faulty premise, but it doesn't hurt anything, people can still force draws in the opening with 3-fold repitition, and in the event that your game peters out to an absolutly dead draw by move 25, is it really that hard or time consuming to play 15 more moves?

In American football, the players are forced to "play out" the remaining minutes of a game, even if one team decides to just take a knee for 4 straight plays.  I don't think that being forced to "play out" 3 moves of a 3-fold repitition is much burden on a player.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: No draw offers before move 40
Reply #10 - 11/22/11 at 17:15:21
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The current Tal Memorial has the rule that no draw offer may be made before move 40. The rule is not affecting the number of decisive games at all.

This rule doesn't achieve the goal of creating more decisive games, and it forces players to play out three-fold repetitions as if they couldn't see what was going on. 

It's just a bad rule.
  
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Re: No draw offers before move 40
Reply #9 - 11/20/11 at 23:39:06
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I agree with MNb, the suggestion is based on a faulty premise.
  
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JonathanB
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Re: No draw offers before move 40
Reply #8 - 11/20/11 at 21:56:52
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Quote:


"With permission by Tony"?  Presumably Kosten rather than Miles??

As for your original post

Quote:
Do you consider this a step in the right direction ?


I wonder if both players knowing that they won't be able to agreed a draw during a game might actually encourage pre-arranged draws?!  Just a thought.

As it happens,  I've recently banned myself from offering draws or accepting premature draws and I think it's been a great help to my chess, but that's a very different issue to draws being legislated against in this manner.
  

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zoo
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Re: No draw offers before move 40
Reply #7 - 11/18/11 at 21:56:33
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as was said in the OP, the rule does not intend to address the drawish tendancy of chess, which is another opera and may have commercial relevance and so on. The links you pointed at are an excellent place to revisit this never-ending story. Quite modestly, the aim is to prevent (or at least, hinder) premature draws by agreement, which totally lack sportmanship.
  
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MNb
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Re: No draw offers before move 40
Reply #6 - 11/18/11 at 20:55:12
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You don't hate it enough. The no draw offers before move 40 rule is a solution to a non-problem.

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=7499
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=7629
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: No draw offers before move 40
Reply #5 - 11/18/11 at 20:27:07
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So, in the game shown, it would be acceptable to declare a draw by 3-fold repetition on move 15, but not to accept a draw on move 10 even though the three-fold repetition is unavoidable?

As I said, I hate that rule.
  
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zoo
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Re: No draw offers before move 40
Reply #4 - 11/18/11 at 20:11:48
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TalJechin
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Re: No draw offers before move 40
Reply #3 - 11/18/11 at 19:48:51
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Quote:
I don't understand, this game is a perfectly valid three-fold repetition. Many openings contain variations with forced draws, they are not prohibited by law.

That reminds me of an anecdote : Miles and somebody else (don't remember who) arranged a draw before playing, but the guy made a wrong move order. Miles spotted the mistake to his opponent, but nevertheless played the drawing move. Some chess "etiquette" !

Perhaps there was a confusion, the rule only deals with "draw by agreement", when one player explicitely offers a draw.


That anecdote sounds familiar, iirc didn't one of the really big guys (Anand? Karpov?) follow that game later and drop a piece after 7-9 moves... ?

As for the rule change I don't think it will have much impact except perhaps on some specific players who have a reputation for accepting draws if offered.

I think ECU also changed some rules recently, something about an obligatory dress code for international team events...?!
  
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