Poll
Poll Question: Should mutually agreed draws be banned?



« Last Modified by: GMTonyKosten on: 05/19/12 at 14:03:50 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) No draw offers before move 40 (Read 58320 times)
GMTonyKosten
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Re: Chess Variants to deal with "draw death"
Reply #92 - 05/19/12 at 09:30:29
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Quote:
this poll is a great idea, yet the options are a bit restrictive in my view. for instance :
- "mutually agreed draw" is not the same as "draw offer". is 3-move repetition a MAD ?

Well, my original choices were too long for the limited space you get in polls, but I'm happy to add some more choices if you like.
I guess you can still make a draw offer, and maybe you can still accept it, in France, but in that case both players will get zero, won't they?
I will be going to the Top12 in just over a week, where I fear this rule may be in force, so we'll see how the super-strong GMs handle it! Undecided
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: No draw offers before move 40
Reply #91 - 05/21/12 at 13:37:46
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TalJechin
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Re: No draw offers before move 40
Reply #90 - 05/19/12 at 07:43:21
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I wouldn't mind if draw offers were not allowed, as I rarely offer a draw unless it is a draw. But three repetitions should of course still be a draw. Which means that in boring positions you're likely to invite a 3-time-rep and achieve it, while in exciting positions you'll have to play on until it's decided - unless you're willing to gamble on inviting a rep which might get refuted on the board...

The only thing you lose by banning the draw offer is the extremely rare "I have to leave due to an emergency" and in that case the result of a chess game shouldn't be very important anyway... 

Btw, a few months ago in a Sunday series game I had an opponent who tried the gambit: "I have to go now, can we take a draw or else I resign?", when a pawn down in an ending which by then probably was a draw if correctly defended. As he had been two pawns down since the middlegame (with no compensation) and thus could have easily resigned if he really was in a hurry, I refused the draw. - It turned out he was going to a dinner party...  Roll Eyes

- Anyway, banning draw offers is a small price to pay for eliminating all these 'sudden game deaths' with "˝-˝" where you start wondering if the rest was Zeitnot or if they really agreed to a draw in this very position?!?
And one less thing to explain to sponsors or an audience.
  
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Gilchrist is a legend
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Re: No draw offers before move 40
Reply #89 - 05/19/12 at 02:57:09
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There is no indication of who is behind in that example, since the third innings is barely finished, and the fourth innings is definitely not going to progress on Day 5 in such a situation. But in situations where a team is behind, if there is not enough time left, it will be a draw after 90 overs. But the main point of the example was to demonstrate that some sports allow draw offers without finishing the game.
  

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Re: No draw offers before move 40
Reply #88 - 05/19/12 at 02:26:40
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 05/18/12 at 23:59:55:
In football, draw offers are not allowed, but in Test cricket, I think they are. I am not sure of what the rules are exactly, but I know that after a certain point on the 5th day, if the game is obviously a draw due to lack of time, e.g. Team A 1st innings: 702, Team B: 2nd innings: 674, Team A: 3rd innings (in progress): 202/1, and it is close to the Tea break on Day 5, I think both captains can ask if they want to draw and finish the game immediately instead of playing out the 90 overs of Day 5. So draw offers are allowed only in some sports.


I don't know what any of this means. If you manage to drag the game on for 5 full days you get a draw even if you're behind, or something?
  

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Re: No draw offers before move 40
Reply #87 - 05/18/12 at 23:59:55
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In football, draw offers are not allowed, but in Test cricket, I think they are. I am not sure of what the rules are exactly, but I know that after a certain point on the 5th day, if the game is obviously a draw due to lack of time, e.g. Team A 1st innings: 702, Team B: 2nd innings: 674, Team A: 3rd innings (in progress): 202/1, and it is close to the Tea break on Day 5, I think both captains can ask if they want to draw and finish the game immediately instead of playing out the 90 overs of Day 5. So draw offers are allowed only in some sports. 

I think forcing players to play drawn positions either to a certain move or indefinitely is ridiculous. In the former, either they will both play random moves to fulfil the move quota; in the latter, the game will be idiotically long, and the game might transpire to a position that is still equal, except the game will finish like an online 3-minute or 1-minute game, with both players trying to win on time in a completely drawn position. In either case, valuable energy is wasted for the next games by playing more moves than should have been required for that game.
  

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Re: No draw offers before move 40
Reply #86 - 05/18/12 at 23:17:22
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Another consideration is that while I think there is a lot of truth behind Giddins's comments, they are only particularly relevant to <1% of competitive chess players.   

While top-level classical chess may be at risk of dying out over the coming century due to the increasing strength of computers unless we make changes to the rules, I don't see that being true at amateur levels for the foreseeable future, where deep computer-assisted opening preperation is rare and mistakes are common.
  
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Re: No draw offers before move 40
Reply #85 - 05/18/12 at 22:11:54
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some are afraid it's a way of fixing games.


Well, technically it is of course. The problem, as  SWJediknight says, is the drawishness of top-leve chess now. It seems the computers have done a lot to take the fun out of the game, for those of us who care most about the fight between two fallible humans...
Gididns wrote something similar over at Chessbase: http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=8162

I don't want to see competitive chess dying a slow death, so what's the best way to make it less drawish while retaining the elements that make it worthwhile? The "no-draw-offers" rules seem rather comical when people are forced to play on in hopelessly drawn position or when neither side is motivated to make an effort; so the incentives or the nature of the game must be changed too.

I had some hopes for the Sofia rules, but they don't seem to make much difference in practice. I didn't think I would ever say this, but I think shorter time controls (leading to more errors) will be part of the solution. And also, contra Giddins, Chess960 could be worthwhile in the future. Or develop western chess in the direction of Shogi and Bughouse, where captured pieces may reappear on the board. 

All these will make the game less drawish while preserving the fight and the mental challenge. Though radical changes to the rules will of course "level the playing field" and devalue a lot of the hard work currently strong players have done to build up their knowledge, so the change is hard to accept...

I wonder how smoothly the 15th century rule changes went by; were there lots of protests from experts bent on keeping the rules all their strategies and knowledge were tied to?
  

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Re: No draw offers before move 40
Reply #84 - 05/18/12 at 21:02:13
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some are afraid it's a way of fixing games. In France, chess is a Sports federation, which expects some sportsmanship. Every year, the national championship is covered by a sports journalist who asks in bewilderment: "wait, can they fix a draw during the game, with all pieces on the board? Imagine a football match after 20mn" etc. At this point, a seasoned chess player tells the journalist that they usually fix the draw - or any other result - before the game, and that you might as well let them do so during the game...
  
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Re: No draw offers before move 40
Reply #83 - 05/18/12 at 20:25:09
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What's in the head of people restricting draw offers? I seriously wonder.
  

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zoo
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Re: No draw offers before move 40
Reply #82 - 05/18/12 at 12:11:11
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this poll is a great idea, yet the options are a bit restrictive in my view. for instance :
- "mutually agreed draw" is not the same as "draw offer". is 3-move repetition a MAD ?
- "draw offer in equal positions" is not the same as "draw offer in drawish positions", or "in positions perceived as drawish by one or both players", or in "any position" or "whenever suitable" as is the case now (the moral touch of "positions perceived as equal by the players" in the last choice is perhaps not necessary, unless it means that the players have to provide an explanation to the arbiter.) 

when a 3-move repetition occurs in a game, i see no reason why an arbiter would "refuse" the draw. I guess perpetual check now comes under the 3-repetion rules. If one player can "force" a draw by making it unsuitable for his opponent to deviate from a repetition, just let the draw happen if the player with the "draw in hand" so wishes. 

Actually it is not easy to capture the problem of "draw offers" in chess. Hopefully the long discussions here made it clear that it is distinct from the problem (if so) of "the drawish tendancy of chess". In other sports such as football, draws are frequent but draw offers are not allowed. At chess, one can see a draw coming but many good players can butcher a drawn position. Moreover, most people who insist that "it's draw because it's equal" tend to play much longer than necessary in lost positions. In computer chess one can claim a tablebase draw in order to save time, but it makes few sense OTB and I would prefer not to allow early draw offers. 
  
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Re: No draw offers before move 40
Reply #81 - 05/18/12 at 11:46:13
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I think the main problem that we have in grandmaster chess is the inherently drawish tendency of chess at the highest levels- the way that with defence and computer-assisted preperation being so good, it is hard to take significant risks to unbalance the position against an opponent who is happy to draw (especially if you are playing Black) without it rebounding on you. 

There is a problematic trade-off here too- is our primary hope as spectators to have chess played very accurately or to have fighting chess with lots of decisive results?  At the highest levels of play it becomes hard to get both- brilliancies tend to have mistakes (often by both sides) and a well-played game tends to see both players cancel each other out resulting in a draw.

I recall reading an article in "Chess Monthly" about how Swiss and round robin systems encourage players to go all-out for the win, whereas in all-play-alls and matches the primary aim is not to lose.  Thus if the aim is to increase the number of decisive results then having more Swisses and round robins may make sense.  

I don't have a strong opinion on rules like "no draws before move 40" in professional events, though I have doubts as to their effectiveness.  I am dead against such rules at amateur levels of play, though, where due to the higher number of mistakes it is easier to get away with taking risks to unbalance the position and the "drawishness" issue is non-existent.
  
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Re: No draw offers before move 40
Reply #80 - 05/18/12 at 09:53:03
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 05/18/12 at 09:30:51:
What do the other Forum members think?

I'm totally against the 40-moves-with-no-draw rules and alike!  Angry
If some organizers want to decrease the draw results...they have to organize only swiss tournaments. It's plain and simple. Pay an appearance fee to the GMs (or to the higher rated participants) to attract them in a swiss tournament and you will see a strong competition with no draws arranged. And make every chess championship a swiss competition if possible. Round-robins only if it's necessary! And don't complain when you see some draw results in a round-robin! It's natural...and it's a part of the game.  Cool
  
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Re: No draw offers before move 40
Reply #79 - 05/18/12 at 09:30:51
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What do the other Forum members think?
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: No draw offers before move 40
Reply #78 - 05/18/12 at 09:24:07
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Keano wrote on 05/18/12 at 08:00:54:
My opinion on this is that for professional players who are payed an appearance fee fair enough they can put up with it or not play, but to have rules like this in a tournament with amateur players is completely wrong.

Yes, I quite agree. It must surely take a lot of the fun from the event, a bit like going back to school and having to sit at your desk until the bell goes.
  
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