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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Queen's Gambit Repertoire (Read 77732 times)
TN
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Re: Queen's Gambit Repertoire
Reply #48 - 11/29/11 at 10:06:56
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I was thinking about this 9.Bg3 line myself when starting the project, but I wanted to check the 19.Bf4 line first. Now that we've concluded that 19.Bf4 is equal, 9.Bg3 is definitely a good option to examine, both theoretically and practically (Anti-Botvinnik and Anti-Moscow in one). 

As far as I know the 9.ef6 line is theoretically harmless, though if one thing is clear about the Botvinnik, it's that things are not so clear! 

Regarding the 2...Bf5 line, it seems the group want the repertoire line to be 3.cd5 Bb1 4.Qa4 c6 5.Rb1, as recommended by Broznik, instead of my suggestion 5.dc6. That's fine by me.
  
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Re: Queen's Gambit Repertoire
Reply #47 - 11/28/11 at 23:05:33
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derdudea wrote on 11/28/11 at 20:34:16:
I´ve spend several weeks on this variation (9.Bg3) it´s definitely worth analysing, since some of the more often played lines are better for white with careful analysis. 

But there are so many playable sidelines, which may offer Black decent chances. Chess practice up to date only scratches the surface of what´s in it. So it´s a perfect practical weapon, but we´re talking chess truth in this repertoire, not practical chances, I guess?


I'm not sure chess truth has black hanging over the abyss in the standard Botvinnik stuff, pending something major. Indeed, black's practical chances are quite strong to boot.

As mentioned above, 9. Bg3 also eliminates a need for Moscow theory. I've identified what I feel is the key line in it - whether black is worse requires study (right now black seems peachy).
  
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Re: Queen's Gambit Repertoire
Reply #46 - 11/28/11 at 21:17:11
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derdudea wrote on 11/28/11 at 20:34:16:
So it´s a perfect practical weapon, but we´re talking chess truth in this repertoire, not practical chances, I guess?


9 exf6 is also interesting from a practical point of view, and maybe even a theoretical one, although 9 Bg3 also works against the Moscow variation.
  
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Re: Queen's Gambit Repertoire
Reply #45 - 11/28/11 at 20:34:16
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I´ve spend several weeks on this variation (9.Bg3) it´s definitely worth analysing, since some of the more often played lines are better for white with careful analysis. 

But there are so many playable sidelines, which may offer Black decent chances. Chess practice up to date only scratches the surface of what´s in it. So it´s a perfect practical weapon, but we´re talking chess truth in this repertoire, not practical chances, I guess?
  
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Re: Queen's Gambit Repertoire
Reply #44 - 11/28/11 at 15:39:27
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re: Botvinnik, after bothering to actually dig deeper black's fine.

On the other hand, 9. Bg3 may very well be worth giving serious attention to. If I remember correctly Chessbase Magazine recently did something on it, but from what I've seen it is a worthy avenue to study.
  
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Re: Queen's Gambit Repertoire
Reply #43 - 11/28/11 at 14:06:43
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I've started the sub-threads: 

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1322489150

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1322489122
  
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Re: Queen's Gambit Repertoire
Reply #42 - 11/28/11 at 10:33:55
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TN wrote on 11/28/11 at 10:21:07:
Zwischenzugzwang wrote on 11/28/11 at 09:00:02:
Dear TN,

in another thread you've suggested to make group repertoire threads sticky. Concerning the QG-thread, one might extend this idea: Have a sticky main thread and several non-sticky "sub threads", dealing with all the variations. The main thread is for orientation, summaries, general discussion and so on, it also contains an "index post" with links to the several "sub threads". The "sub threads" are the places where the work is done, they should have something in common in their headers like "QG repertoire: [Dxy]", where [Dxy] is the ECO code.

As a result, (i) the "sub threads" would somehow remain restricted in size, which would increase clarity, and (ii) people might work in their particular area of interest, as there is not only one building site. The sometimes annoying mixing of posts (one post for D44, the next two for D36, one for D06 and again one for D44 and so on) would be avoided.

That might sound like some more work for the "thread moderator" (i.e. you), but once this system is set up, it should also be easier for him (that are you again  Grin) to follow the developments.

Best regards,

Zwischenzugzwang

Edited:
This editing has happened after TN's last post, but I think it won't interfere. Two more advantages of "head thread" and "sub threads": (iii) It might actually decrease the thread moderator's work load as it's possible to have "sub moderators" for the "sub threads", and (iv) we don't have to agree necessarily on all the lines covered. If, for example, Smyslov_Fan prefers 3.Nf3 against the QGA, and others (like me) prefer 3.e4, then we could have two "sub threads" [D20] and [D21-D29] without substantial increase of the projects' complexity. I think in this case both are legitimate approaches, and we avoid any sort of  "religious war".


I agree with this. Markovich is the moderator of this forum, so he would have to sticky this thread for the idea to be implemented. 




I think this would be a substantial improvement, since this would give an easy overview, and still allow for analysis of each line with ease.
  
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Re: Queen's Gambit Repertoire
Reply #41 - 11/28/11 at 10:21:07
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Zwischenzugzwang wrote on 11/28/11 at 09:00:02:
Dear TN,

in another thread you've suggested to make group repertoire threads sticky. Concerning the QG-thread, one might extend this idea: Have a sticky main thread and several non-sticky "sub threads", dealing with all the variations. The main thread is for orientation, summaries, general discussion and so on, it also contains an "index post" with links to the several "sub threads". The "sub threads" are the places where the work is done, they should have something in common in their headers like "QG repertoire: [Dxy]", where [Dxy] is the ECO code.

As a result, (i) the "sub threads" would somehow remain restricted in size, which would increase clarity, and (ii) people might work in their particular area of interest, as there is not only one building site. The sometimes annoying mixing of posts (one post for D44, the next two for D36, one for D06 and again one for D44 and so on) would be avoided.

That might sound like some more work for the "thread moderator" (i.e. you), but once this system is set up, it should also be easier for him (that are you again  Grin) to follow the developments.

Best regards,

Zwischenzugzwang

Edited:
This editing has happened after TN's last post, but I think it won't interfere. Two more advantages of "head thread" and "sub threads": (iii) It might actually decrease the thread moderator's work load as it's possible to have "sub moderators" for the "sub threads", and (iv) we don't have to agree necessarily on all the lines covered. If, for example, Smyslov_Fan prefers 3.Nf3 against the QGA, and others (like me) prefer 3.e4, then we could have two "sub threads" [D20] and [D21-D29] without substantial increase of the projects' complexity. I think in this case both are legitimate approaches, and we avoid any sort of  "religious war".


I agree with this. Markovich is the moderator of this forum, so he would have to sticky this thread for the idea to be implemented. 


  
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Re: Queen's Gambit Repertoire
Reply #40 - 11/28/11 at 09:22:37
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 11/28/11 at 07:25:34:
TN wrote on 11/27/11 at 21:09:59:
(1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Bg5 dc4 6.e4 b5 7.e5 h6 8.Bh4 g5 9.Ng5 hg5 10.Bg5 Nbd7 11.g3 Bb7 12.Bg2 Qb6 13.ef6 c5 14.d5 0-0-0 15.0-0 b4 16.Na4)

...
Edit: What do you think is the best line against the Chigorin? I honestly don't know.


This post makes me just about ready to give up. The line posted presupposes that there has already been agreement about our move order as early as move three. 

This doesn't appear to be a repertoire that the people here agree to, it's one that's decreed for us.


No it doesn't; I am just giving a possible line to lead to the resulting position. I don't know whether the final repertoire will be with 3.Nf3 or 3.Nc3, but so far no one has disagreed with my suggestion of 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3/3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3, meeting 4...e6 with 5.Bg5. I also don't know whether the repertoire will recommend 11.g3 or 11.ef6 (for instance 11.g3 Rg8 is one independent line), but either way we'll have to examine the main line, unless someone has some very good ideas in one of the alternatives to 6.e4 b5 7.e5 h6 8.Bh4 g5 9.Ng5. 

The last statement is ridiculous. Here are some of my earlier posts:

Quote:
I suggest that this be the basic skeleton for the repertoire:

1.d4 d5 2.c4:

a) 2...Bf5 3.Nc3 (or 3.cd5 depending on our analysis)
b) 2...Nc6 3.Nc3
c) 2...e5 3.de5 d4 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.g3 (5.Nbd2/5.a3 depending on our analysis)
d) 2...dc4 3.e4 (or 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 e6 5.Bc4 c5 6.0-0 a6 7.dc5, I am not sure at this stage)
e) 2...e6 3.Nc3:
e1) 3...Be7 4.cd5 ed5 5.Bf4
e2) 3...c6 4.e4
e3) 3...c5 4.cd5 ed5 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.dc5
e4) 3...Nf6 4.cd5 ed5 5.Bg5 c6 6.e3, usually following up with Nge2
f) 2...c6 3.Nf3:
f1) 3...e6 4.Qc2 (maybe 4.Nc3 depending on our analysis)
f2) 3...Nf6 4.Nc3:
f2a) 4...a6 5.c5 (or 5.e3 depending on our analysis)
f2b) 4...dc4 5.a4 Bf5 6.Ne5
f2c) 4...e6 5.Bg5 h6 6.Bf6/5...Nbd7 6.e3/5...dc4 6.e4


I suggested this to get something that can be discussed. Some posters (including you) suggested ways to improve this repertoire, and I am taking these suggestions seriously.

Quote:
Sure, I understand what you mean now. I don't think that this line gives White an advantage, but it can't hurt to examine it.


This post was in reference to Zwischenzug's suggestion of playing Nf3/Nc3 against the Triangle. I think this is a good idea and I might even start by examining the Noteboom over my suggestion of the Marshall Gambit and/or 3.Nf3 e6 4.Qc2 (depending on the move order). 


Quote:
Fair enough, I wasn't sure whether to suggest Schandorff's 3.e4 or the main line with 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 so I gave both. 

Actually your question is quite an important one. The repertoire is based on playing the best moves as White. The aim is to show += in all variations.


You made a suggestion to go with 3.Nf3 instead of 3.e4, and at this stage I'm intending to follow it.

Quote:
A fair point, although to be honest I don't think there are any alternatives if White wants to fight for an advantage. The last time I checked 16.Rb1 was just a draw, for instance. I don't have a problem with people sharing analyses of theirs in different lines.


In response to your concern about discussing what to do on move 19-20 of the Botvinnik to start, I invited people to share their analyses of other lines if they felt they offered chances of +=. 

There are other examples later in the thread, but these quotes certainly show that I have been flexible in considering and often following other people's suggestions for the repertoire, including some of yours. 

In any event I hope you don't give up on the project - your contributions thus far have been useful. 
  
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Re: Queen's Gambit Repertoire
Reply #39 - 11/28/11 at 09:00:02
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Dear TN,

in another thread you've suggested to make group repertoire threads sticky. Concerning the QG-thread, one might extend this idea: Have a sticky main thread and several non-sticky "sub threads", dealing with all the variations. The main thread is for orientation, summaries, general discussion and so on, it also contains an "index post" with links to the several "sub threads". The "sub threads" are the places where the work is done, they should have something in common in their headers like "QG repertoire: [Dxy]", where [Dxy] is the ECO code.

As a result, (i) the "sub threads" would somehow remain restricted in size, which would increase clarity, and (ii) people might work in their particular area of interest, as there is not only one building site. The sometimes annoying mixing of posts (one post for D44, the next two for D36, one for D06 and again one for D44 and so on) would be avoided.

That might sound like some more work for the "thread moderator" (i.e. you), but once this system is set up, it should also be easier for him (that are you again  Grin) to follow the developments.

Best regards,

Zwischenzugzwang

Edited:
This editing has happened after TN's last post, but I think it won't interfere. Two more advantages of "head thread" and "sub threads": (iii) It might actually decrease the thread moderator's work load as it's possible to have "sub moderators" for the "sub threads", and (iv) we don't have to agree necessarily on all the lines covered. If, for example, Smyslov_Fan prefers 3.Nf3 against the QGA, and others (like me) prefer 3.e4, then we could have two "sub threads" [D20] and [D21-D29] without substantial increase of the projects' complexity. I think in this case both are legitimate approaches, and we avoid any sort of  "religious war".
  
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Re: Queen's Gambit Repertoire
Reply #38 - 11/28/11 at 07:25:34
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TN wrote on 11/27/11 at 21:09:59:
(1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Bg5 dc4 6.e4 b5 7.e5 h6 8.Bh4 g5 9.Ng5 hg5 10.Bg5 Nbd7 11.g3 Bb7 12.Bg2 Qb6 13.ef6 c5 14.d5 0-0-0 15.0-0 b4 16.Na4)

...
Edit: What do you think is the best line against the Chigorin? I honestly don't know.


This post makes me just about ready to give up. The line posted presupposes that there has already been agreement about our move order as early as move three. 

This doesn't appear to be a repertoire that the people here agree to, it's one that's decreed for us.
  
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Re: Queen's Gambit Repertoire
Reply #37 - 11/27/11 at 21:09:59
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(1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Bg5 dc4 6.e4 b5 7.e5 h6 8.Bh4 g5 9.Ng5 hg5 10.Bg5 Nbd7 11.g3 Bb7 12.Bg2 Qb6 13.ef6 c5 14.d5 0-0-0 15.0-0 b4 16.Na4)

In the fourth game of the PGN file, I have done a brief analysis of the 24.h4 line given by BPaulsen, but have also covered all of Black's alternatives after 16...Qa6 17.a3. I have a feeling BPaulsen has an improvement over my analysis somewhere as I wasn't able to prove an edge for White in the 24.h4 line. 

As for the 16...Qb5 line, I haven't been able to find an edge in the 19.Bf4 line so it makes sense for the group to examine 19.Be3.

Edit: What do you think is the best line against the Chigorin? I honestly don't know.
« Last Edit: 11/28/11 at 03:41:50 by TN »  
D44_002.pgn ( 10 KB | Downloads )
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Re: Queen's Gambit Repertoire
Reply #36 - 11/27/11 at 19:23:29
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Sounds good to me. I chose to look at Avrukh's line because it looked simpler than Schandorff's, though objectively they are more or less equivalent. 

  
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Re: Queen's Gambit Repertoire
Reply #35 - 11/27/11 at 18:05:45
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fling wrote on 11/27/11 at 18:01:00:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 11/27/11 at 15:39:39:
So, what minor line do we start with? 

1.d4 d5 2.c4....


Let's start with 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Bf5.


I agree that the line in TN's file, 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Bf5 3.cxd5 leads to a plus for White. However, I will likely choose to play 3.Nc3, since this would make preparation easier for other lines with a later ...Bf5, like in the Slav. A matter of taste, though.
  
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Re: Queen's Gambit Repertoire
Reply #34 - 11/27/11 at 18:01:00
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 11/27/11 at 15:39:39:
So, what minor line do we start with? 

1.d4 d5 2.c4....


Let's start with 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Bf5.
  
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