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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Queen's Gambit Repertoire (Read 77738 times)
Zwischenzugzwang
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Re: Queen's Gambit Repertoire
Reply #63 - 12/03/11 at 12:51:01
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TN wrote on 12/03/11 at 11:56:51:

The Yearbook 100 survey would suggest that White has chances for an advantage, but Black probably equalises in the 7...Qa5/8...c5 line. This is not my opinion though, it is Ikonnikov's. 


Thank you, TN, for pointing out that survey. The line it covers is not exactly what I was talking about, as in "my" variation, White plays a4 after ... b5 has already happened, but this way it might even be nicer. Ikonnikov's line might become relevant for us in the discussion of D16 after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 dxc4 5.a4 e6, if White goes 6.e4 Bb4 (...Bb4 played in over 90 % of the games, so "almost forced") 7.Bg5 and now we've reached the "Ikonnikov Variation" (instead Schandorff opts for 7.e5, p. 82 ff.). If I haven't made a mental blunder, this line seems to cover both the regular Slav move order shown above and the Semi-Slav move order 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 c6 5.Bg5 dxc4 6.a4 Bb4 (again the most common move, appr. 80%) 7.e4.

Therefore I'd suggest to investigate this line in the context of D16 and keep in mind that it could also be used as an Anti-Botvinnik line.

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TN
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Re: Queen's Gambit Repertoire
Reply #62 - 12/03/11 at 11:56:51
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I have added the group's analysis plus my response in a PGN file to this thread: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1322489150/15#18

I was intending to have all the D44 analysis done in the D44 thread, but your analysis has been good so I haven't got in the way  Wink

@Zwischenzugzwang

The Yearbook 100 survey would suggest that White has chances for an advantage, but Black probably equalises in the 7...Qa5/8...c5 line. This is not my opinion though, it is Ikonnikov's. 

I want to focus on 9.e5 for now, but if that does not work out then the group can shift their attention towards your 7.a4 suggestion and another member's 9.ef6 gh4 10.Ne5 Qf6 11.g3 suggestion.
  

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Re: Queen's Gambit Repertoire
Reply #61 - 12/02/11 at 09:51:37
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I readily admit that I'm sort of novice to all this D44-stuff (for Markovich: That's the Botvinnik Slav  Smiley), but looking at the sheer number of (extremely complex) games, I wonder if there aren't earlier alternatives. What is the state of the art in the (1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 c6 5.Bg5 dxc4 6.e4 b5) 7.a4 line? After having a glance at the statistics, 7...Qb6 seems to favour Black, but there are so much fewer games than after 7.e5!

So what do the experts mean - is investigating this line just a waste of time or might there be some benefits in doing so?

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Re: Queen's Gambit Repertoire
Reply #60 - 12/02/11 at 09:39:27
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BPaulsen wrote on 12/02/11 at 02:08:24:
13...Bd5 is just one option in that position, I feel white should definitely be better after it. 13...Nc6, or 13...Qc7 are both interesting.

9...Nh5 10. a4 has been my preference in analysis. Black seems to be on kind of shaky ground in the games I've seen with it. Granted, some concrete analysis should still be done, but my initial impression is that since the Bg3 is basically white's worst piece, black's "threat" to exchange it doesn't cause that much worry.


10.a4 must be critical I guess, in analogy with the positions with Be2 and ...Bb7 played. White most often has opted Be2 anyway, which leads to the question is if Black has something more useful than ...Bb7, like answering a4 with ...a6, or ignore it, and after axb5 play ...c5. Kinda the same as in the Meran, where it isn't always necessary for Black to play both ...a6 and ...Bb7 early on.

The thing I have found with these very messy positions is that what seems fine on "ordinary" chess terms is not always the best. Even if Bg3 is White's worst piece at the moment, Black might still want to chop it of based on long-term prospects after a possible opening up of the position (e.g. after ...c5), based on the dark-square weaknesses on the kingside, and based on the devaluation of White's kingside. For tactical reasons White often has to play hxg3, which also takes away the possible h4-break.

It does seem like Black has the worse position in the "regular" anti-Moscow lines (with Be2 and Bb7 included) after ...Nh5, which means that all this goes to show that concrete analysis is needed for sure. I suspect White might be better after 9...Nh5, though, but it hasn't really been tested.

I'll have a look at this at home. Just wanted to get the idea of 9...Nh5 out there. Dreev doesn't really give it much attention, maybe because it is a minor line.
  
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Re: Queen's Gambit Repertoire
Reply #59 - 12/02/11 at 02:08:24
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13...Bd5 is just one option in that position, I feel white should definitely be better after it. 13...Nc6, or 13...Qc7 are both interesting.

9...Nh5 10. a4 has been my preference in analysis. Black seems to be on kind of shaky ground in the games I've seen with it. Granted, some concrete analysis should still be done, but my initial impression is that since the Bg3 is basically white's worst piece, black's "threat" to exchange it doesn't cause that much worry.
  

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Re: Queen's Gambit Repertoire
Reply #58 - 12/01/11 at 22:02:24
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BPaulsen wrote on 12/01/11 at 21:06:19:
11...Nxc3 seems like another critical option in the 9. Bg3 continuation. White needs to be on the ball to hope for anything.


This is mentioned by Dreev by transposition:
as in Wojtaszek-V.Georgiev, 2007. White lost this game, but was clearly better from move 22. The question is if there are improvements for Black, like the suggested 13 ...Nc6!?

Also, normally, White doesn't play e5 in the Anti-Moscow before Be2 and ...Bb7 is played. Is there any side that can profit from this (I don't think so, but it is relevant for our repertoire if we like 9.Bg3)?

This is also critical, since after other moves than 10. Nd2, or rather, after 10.Be2 Bb7, 11.h4 and 11.0-0, Black seems to have more chances than in the Botvinnik.

Yet another critical option is for Black to play 9 ...Nh5!? 10.Be2 Nd7, as mentioned by Dreev. This variation might even be better for Black, because he can use the omission of Be2/Bb7 to play something more useful.
  
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Re: Queen's Gambit Repertoire
Reply #57 - 12/01/11 at 21:06:19
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11...Nxc3 seems like another critical option in the 9. Bg3 continuation. White needs to be on the ball to hope for anything.
  

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Re: Queen's Gambit Repertoire
Reply #56 - 12/01/11 at 09:33:38
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I've posted a PGN file containing derdudea and BPaulsen's analysis in the following thread: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1322489150
  

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Re: Queen's Gambit Repertoire
Reply #55 - 11/29/11 at 23:28:38
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That´s a typical example of what I ment when I spoke of sidelines which may be better than the mainlines used by GM.
  
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Re: Queen's Gambit Repertoire
Reply #54 - 11/29/11 at 23:17:21
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10. Nd2 Qa5 concerns me.

11. Nde4 Nd7 12. Be2 b4 as in V. Sladek-P. Foenander, E-Mail 2009. Black's strategy of ...Ba6, ...Rb8, ...c3 is tough, and very clear. I suppose white could try 11. Nce4 to play against it, but it's definitely unusual. I'm going to guess it's the solution though.
  

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Re: Queen's Gambit Repertoire
Reply #53 - 11/29/11 at 19:22:34
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TN wrote on 11/29/11 at 14:15:52:
BPaulsen wrote on 11/29/11 at 13:52:30:
Note that there could still be something for white in the long lines, I just don't see it right now.

I try to give honest assessments in my analysis, but it doesn't mean I see everything, and certainly not in something as complex as the Botvinnik.


I studied the 9.Bg3 variation today using Harika's survey in Yearbook 96. It seems that White has enough compensation for the material in every line, but it's hard to say whether it's enough for an advantage. The critical line is 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Bg5 dc4 6.e4 b5 7.e5 h6 8.Bh4 g5 9.Bg3 Nd5 10.Nd2 Bb7 11.Be2 Nd7 12.0-0 Qb6 13.a4 a6 14.Nde4 Nd7 15.Qd2 c5 16.ab5 ab5 17.Nd5 Nd5 18.Nc3. 

I intend to post an update of the most important lines in Harika's survey in the D44 thread.


To avoid confusion, it has to be 14.Nde4 0-0-0, I guess, since the knight is already on d7.
After 18.Nc3 White seems to get the better play:

18....Bb7 19.d5 Lg7 20.b3 Lxe5 (20...cxb3 21.Bxb5 Kxe5 22.Qe2±) 21.Lxe5 Sxe5 22.bxc4 b4 23.De3 Sd7 24.Sb5 exd5 is Stocek,J (2593)-Najer,E (2663)/Wheeling 2010/) and here 25.Dg3± is a major improvement over the game.

18....Nb8 19.Nxd5 Rxd5 20.Bf3 Txd4 21.Qe2 Bg7 22.Ra8 Rhd8? 23.Rfa1 is Babula,V (2515)-Hoffmann,M (2510)/Germany 2011, analysed by Scherbakov, who judges: 'And this position is already better for White as Black has no good plan.'
Scherbakov mentions 22....Kd7! as an improvement, but it´s not sufficient:
22...Kd7!? 23.Rfa1 Rc8 24.Bh5 Ke8 25.f4 with an advantage for White I guess (hope?)
  
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Re: Queen's Gambit Repertoire
Reply #52 - 11/29/11 at 16:58:22
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For the purposes of this repertoire I don't think Meran/Anti-Merans should be ruled out.

For instance, the 14. Ne2 Meran line covered in the recent chesspub update has serious upside.
  

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Re: Queen's Gambit Repertoire
Reply #51 - 11/29/11 at 14:15:52
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BPaulsen wrote on 11/29/11 at 13:52:30:
Note that there could still be something for white in the long lines, I just don't see it right now.

I try to give honest assessments in my analysis, but it doesn't mean I see everything, and certainly not in something as complex as the Botvinnik.


I studied the 9.Bg3 variation today using Harika's survey in Yearbook 96. It seems that White has enough compensation for the material in every line, but it's hard to say whether it's enough for an advantage. The critical line is 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Bg5 dc4 6.e4 b5 7.e5 h6 8.Bh4 g5 9.Bg3 Nd5 10.Nd2 Bb7 11.Be2 Nd7 12.0-0 Qb6 13.a4 a6 14.Nde4 Nd7 15.Qd2 c5 16.ab5 ab5 17.Nd5 Nd5 18.Nc3. 

I intend to post an update of the most important lines in Harika's survey in the D44 thread.
  

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Re: Queen's Gambit Repertoire
Reply #50 - 11/29/11 at 13:52:30
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Note that there could still be something for white in the long lines, I just don't see it right now.

I try to give honest assessments in my analysis, but it doesn't mean I see everything, and certainly not in something as complex as the Botvinnik.
  

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FIDE based on just 27 games.
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Re: Queen's Gambit Repertoire
Reply #49 - 11/29/11 at 10:16:57
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BPaulsen wrote on 11/28/11 at 23:05:33:
derdudea wrote on 11/28/11 at 20:34:16:
I´ve spend several weeks on this variation (9.Bg3) it´s definitely worth analysing, since some of the more often played lines are better for white with careful analysis. 

But there are so many playable sidelines, which may offer Black decent chances. Chess practice up to date only scratches the surface of what´s in it. So it´s a perfect practical weapon, but we´re talking chess truth in this repertoire, not practical chances, I guess?


I'm not sure chess truth has black hanging over the abyss in the standard Botvinnik stuff, pending something major. Indeed, black's practical chances are quite strong to boot.

As mentioned above, 9. Bg3 also eliminates a need for Moscow theory. I've identified what I feel is the key line in it - whether black is worse requires study (right now black seems peachy).


This could be a very practical reason to deviate early. Especially since it seems that the long theory lines don't give much for White anyway.
  
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